Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings Inspiration

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cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings Insp...

Hmmm, so I was thinking about the structure and format of the Gypsy Kings’ Rumba Inspiration – Why is this such a good instrumental? So I tried a simple analysis using my puny brain and was wondering what anyone else could add or thoughts on why this Rumba is so good...

Key of Em – second fret but the music was sped up a bit.

Theme A (Opening)

Starts on an Em9 chord (E,B, F#, G, B), then moves with the high G and B strings as pedal tones to a Gmaj7 chord. Nice! Sounds so good, gets the feet tapping, and so they do it twice. This sets the opening for the piece and creates tension in the listener… Is that because Gmajor and Em are relative – not sure but it is cool.

Theme B

OK, then we get the next Theme B which moves through the chords Em, F#, Am, B7. This is also played twice. Theme B is an introduction to the melody section and appears again later in the piece as a break.

Melody A

Then, the first series of melodies, played over Em, Am7, D7, G, C, Am7 and B7 chords. This series of melodies goes as high as the 5th fret on the high e string. Note that the Em chord includes an additional half measure to start the melody throughout this series of melodies. The melody over the first and second cycle of chords is very similar, the third time around is different, played lower down the octave and they rarely touch the high b and e string. Anyways, thinking in threes is very natural for the human brain, and the melody closes off for a rest back to …

Theme B – a break before Melody B.

Melody B

Now we start the second series of melody, and this is interesting because after the first cycle of chords, the extra ½ measure with the Em chord disappears. We don’t need any more introduction because the melody continues without a break although there is still a bit of repetition in the melody. This melody goes higher up the neck to 12th fret on the high e string.

Also interesting is the melody continues through 4 cycles through the chords, whereas before there was only 3.

Closing Time

Then we get to the ending figure, and the melody chords are played in cut time twice through, although the Em chord each time it is played has 4 beats instead of the 2 beat cut time for the other chords. This significantly changes the feel of the piece, and we are rushed to a very satisfying end.

I guess the interesting part to me is that the structure of the piece provides a lot of interest and variety, let alone what is happening in the melody!
Any contributions or further thoughts to add?

I wonder if this is the Gypsy Kings most complicated structure for a Rumba and how they came-up with it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2010 5:01:30

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Sounds so good, gets the feet tapping, and so they do it twice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2010 6:16:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

first of all that is not right for the intro...Eminor9 yes, then CMaj7#11/E is second, then Am13, then Bm(b6). The chord accompaniment can simply be Em, Cmajor, Am, Bm...with the open strings plus dissonant F# heard as tension played by the lead guitar. A rhythmical ostinato pattern where mainly just bass notes change.

The second part is also an ostinato pattern, the last 2 chords actually are sus chords because of the lead guitar melody. A(sus#4), and B(sus4). the suspension (sus) means there is not a third in the chord so the chord quality is implied or supplied by the rhythm guitar backing.

The main body of the song is simply the Circle of 5th progression in Eminor. Pleasant and common cycle of chords since the baroque period which just bring everybody that warm fuzzy familiar feeling. More likely the "inspiration" for this is Paco's Rio Ancho which is the same progression (minus the Am7 which in the more proper circle of 5th progresson is a substitute for F#m7b5). The amazing melodies sound to me like fairly random improvisations....again a nod to Paco's concept of rumba since the 70's that you can have simple cycle of chords and create "falsetas" on the fly so long as you have a back up rhythm partner.

The tempo is a bit slower and more romantic then Rio, but hopefully you can see the connection. and then you have "un amor" almost the same song only with words.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2010 17:02:02

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Hey Ricardo, thanks very much for the corrections. My musical theory understanding is basically zilch.

I do like Rio Ancho a lot and will listen to the comparison with Inspiration closely.

So, what do you think about the structure in terms of the 1/2 measures and "cut time" and such. I know you have stated that the rumba is in 2/4 time and not 4/4 time as commonly held. This would explain the half measures I guess.

But what I wonder is how complicated of a Rumba is this compared to most Rumbas in terms of the structure? You used to play in a Rumba band so what do you think?

Why do you think the melody is "fairly random improvisation"? Can it be said almost anything can come from that source? I mean compared to some Rumbas I have heard (the artists shall remain nameless), this sounds very well put together.

I am curious, qualitatively how would you rate Rio Ancho compared to Inspiration? Out of 5 stars?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 4:38:36

Guest

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Bm(b6).

Gmaj7/B or Bm#5 ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 7:46:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVal

quote:

Bm(b6).

Gmaj7/B or Bm#5 ?

Thinking like a flamenco the open g string makes a tension so it is colorful Bminor chord, you find in toques like Granaina or Taranta. Gmj7/B is however technically correct way to spell it. Another implied chord is Em9/B. Bm#5 is NOT correct really because the chord already has the perfect 5th in the voicing (F#).

A general rule for chord building is you don't really use 2 of the same interval. Hence things like a #9 chord, so you don't imply both a major and a minor third in the same chord.

Rio Ancho-6 stars. Inspiration-3 stars.

About the half measure. Very typical in flamenco to have half compas rumba, and likewise bulerias. Up tempo rhythms allow things to be less "square". There is freedom to doing it or not once you feel it. Again check live versions of GK and even in the songs with lyrics you will find the odd half compas or not differs from the studio versions.

Watch this from about 1:30 and see if you notice the half compas. The accompanist does it knowing paco's melodic phrasing started late. See if you can catch exact where. This is normal flamenco behavior.

Most of the Gypsy kings instrumentals are simple "vamps" that are a cycle of chords with a a couple of catchier melodies repeated that sound like they were originally improvisation. Compare to live versions to see what I mean. I also feel many of them are based on flamenco falsetas or compostions that are much more sophisticated then the GK versions. I find GK stuff way more fun and easy to play for that reason, then learning a tough note for note version of what inspired it. Compare something like Gerardo Nunez "Mi Patio" to GK's "Catalunya"... as an example to see what I mean.

or playback version:

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 19:21:26

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,

Gerardo still had that same "open tuning" sound even way back then.
Really great stuff.

What's the earliest video there is of him playing?

On seeing/hearing Paco's "live" but casual performance...and although I've heard so much of his early stuff that I sometimes just "accept" it as Paco without further thought to it....

I've got to admit, there hasn't been a Flamenco player yet to rival him when he was at the height of his powers.

The power and tone and clarity are just something else...

He truly is the best Flamenco guitarist who has ever been.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 20:11:39

Guest

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Thinking like a flamenco the open g string makes a tension so it is colorful Bminor chord,

Thanks Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 2:39:46

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Hey Ricardo, the extra half compas at 1:44 is even better, the rhythm guy goes for the next chord and then realizes Paco hasn't changed and goes back to the Em. Interesting, in the key of Em that the extra half compas is always on the Em - and that makes sense at the start of a phrase, but I wonder if anyone has tried that also at the end of the phrase on the B7...

OK, anyways I get the half compas stuff.

But what about the cut time? Any other examples of that???

Hmm, OK I think Paco 6 and GK only 3 is a bit off. I give GK a bit more - maybe 4.5 But Gerardo's thing, hmm, I give that one 2 stars. Nothing really catchy about it AT ALL! Not very listenable, I turned it off...

What point did you want to make about Gerardo???

Anyways, I think the GK Inspiration is a good example on how to add variety and interest to a musical piece that does not rely on melody alone, that the structure itself can show something interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 2:33:50

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

But Gerardo's thing, hmm, I give that one 2 stars. Nothing really catchy about it AT ALL! Not very listenable, I turned it off... What point did you want to make about Gerardo???

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 10:35:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Nothing really catchy about it AT ALL! Not very listenable, I turned it off...

Well that says a lot about your tastes that is all. Point was Gerardo's piece is quite complex though it was clearly the inspiration for mr. Tonino's watered down popish version. Too bad you are not willing to listen to things that are a bit more of a challenge for the ear. But perhaps as you advance your tastes will change, as is often the case.

I admitted earlier, I find the GK instrumentals more easy and fun to play. Commercially that is good, but artistically it is a lame excuse for not taking the time to dig deeper and go for more challenges. Hope you get where I was coming from.

quote:

But what about the cut time? Any other examples of that???

I will try to think of a rumba by a flamenco, but this always happens in baile or in some cante's like Tiento/tango....etc....

In Gk's tune they are not doing "cut time" cuz they dont' change the rhythmic feel. The chords move one "compas" at a time intead of 2 compases at a time, that is all. This happens in like millions of rumbas and tangos with singing when the chorus (estribillo) kicks in. (Un amor comes to mind again.)

Sorry man, It is just that for so many years I have heard about how great a composer and player is Tonino of GK, when I recognize so many falestas and ideas that he took and watered down and cheezified...that it irritates me as an aficionado. For what it is worth he is a good flamenco player, I have personally jammed with him por bulerias. His look on stage of apathy comes across to me as a guy forced to water down his music so it is more commercially viable for a wider audience then an elite group of aficionados. Having to play that stuff on an electric guitar ain't fun either and it shows to me. Check out his solo album to see how he prefers to compose and play. Again you might not like it since it is not as "catchy" as his offerings with the GK pop machine.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 18:52:18

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Yes, you are right. My ear is just not ready for that Tango example played by Gerardo at this point - in fact I probably would have been hard put to identify it as a Tango on first listen for as long as I did. I much prefer Moraito for example. There are a quite a few other flamencos I am not ready for either as I think they are too harmonically advanced or otherwise for my taste in flamenco - e.g. Juan Carmona.

No need for sorries, I just like the fun sound of the GK although not all of their stuff is good. Like you said, it is fun to play and fun to listen to. The later stuff is not good imho. It is like the Police or Simple Minds, the early stuff is way better than the later stuff where the freshness is gone, and they try to get too smart for me.

Anyways, I am using cut time colloquially in reference to the chords going by twice as fast as you would normally expect. If you ever come across another rhumba example by somebody else of that then I hope you think of this thread and link it as I would love to hear it.

PS the reason I brought-up the GK Inspiration is because I have been working on trying to play it and had to figure out what is going on with it. And I really like it although I have been trying to play it for so long it is wearing on me! But I don't idolize Tonino etc. I thought it would be cool to analyze a piece in my little way and would love for somebody else to take a stab at another one, maybe a bulerias by Gerardo or something...

OK, I spent more time listening to those links rather than superficially writing them off without a critical listen - I guess I wasn't in the mood at the time. I perhaps was a bit unkind to Gerardo with the example given - it is growing on me... and I hear the similarity with GK example given. Cheers and Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2010 3:40:38

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

So it is as I thought. Nobody can come up with a flamenco Rumba with a more complex structure than Inspiration! I have waited and nothing. So this Rumba really does live up to its name...

LOL!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 3:22:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

I wonder if this is the Gypsy Kings most complicated structure for a Rumba and how they came-up with it?

Love and liberte is way more complex in terms of chord structure. They way they came up with it was by simply improvising it I am sure. Sorry not to respond before, but I simply was not "inspired".

If you wanted a more complex rumba by a flamenco guitarist, then try "Isa" by Gerardo Nuñez.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 4:02:29

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Nobody can come up with a flamenco Rumba with a more complex structure than Inspiration!

There are heaps of more complex rhumbas so by this do you mean that nobody can find a more complex rhumba by a flamenco that you like as much as Inspiration by the gypsy kings? Only you will know. That was a long sentence

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 4:47:41

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

Dude of course there are more complex rumbas. Try anything by Armik, or Benise. Those guys are way less watered-down and derivative.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 14:46:40

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

To clairfy, I mean structure, not more harmonically interesting or complicated chords within the typical Rumba rhythm...

I will check the links to see...

Anyways, just having a go to see what comes up. If it brings a smile or laugh to your face then I am winning.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:01:46

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

click on "Calle Canastera"

http://www.myspace.com/jesusderosario

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:55:22

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

ah cool ! a new rumba thread where i can spam some new rumbitas sound system

i like this one. The original theme is "cocos" from los Amayas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 20:28:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

To clairfy, I mean structure, not more harmonically interesting or complicated chords within the typical Rumba rhythm...

I will check the links to see...

Anyways, just having a go to see what comes up. If it brings a smile or laugh to your face then I am winning.

In that case...gypsy kings sucks actually. pick any rumba out of a hat and you have better structure then that amature crapola....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2011 7:08:55

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Rumba - thoughts on Gypsy Kings ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Any Rumba by Paco de Lucia, Cañizares, Riqueni ... is more complex in every sense.

Anyone got some good elevator music out there?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2011 20:58:51