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Often times, I hear that falsetas and compas can be played 'more elastic' with delayed timings and such, especially in the case of a Solea. What does this mean?
1) Does this mean you can play a falseta that was originally intended to have a groove in 2's to one that is in groove of 3's and then quickly change the speed so that it finishes timely for the end of the section (i.e. slow play on beats 3-6, and then quickly rush to finish on beat 10)?
I can imagine certain stressed beats can be more 'important' than others, often times beats 3 and 10 (i.e. it would sound weird to me if I resolve a solea phrase back to the E chord before beat 10). If this is true, then I can play any falseta that is originally intended to fall on the traditional accents (3,6,8.10,12) elsewhere...so long as I resolve back to the tonic chord on beat 10. True?
2) Or does the stretching the compas in this manner means you can play the original falseta at whatever speed, but ONLY enough to LAND on the intended accents (3,6,8,10,12 for instance).
An example would be if I started my p-a-i rasgueado ON beat 2 to finish on beat 3 accent VERSUS starting the p-a-i rasgueado slightly AFTER beat 2, but also landing on 3 -- keeping in mind that beat 3 is considered the accent here). I guess this gets into dynamics of playing as well.
As flamenco continues to evolve, syncopated beats and melodies are more prominently heard in modern music that it almost FEELS that you can accent just about anything you want (to the untrained ear). But as I'm a student of the art, I'm finding it difficult to know which beats are important to accent, how to make compas stretch. I'm learning that this is especially the case with the bulerias where it is highly driven where you can play in 12's and then throw in a half medio compas for certain extended letras in cante...and if that's the case, then beats 12 and 6 can be considered 'important', but would that mean I can stretch/shorten whatever I play to whatever length I want so long as I accent these specifically?
Confusing!
Any clear examples/videos where compas elasticity is executed and identifiable? This would be immensely useful for me.
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From: Washington DC
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
Too often students and aficionados make the elasticity of compas issue an excuse for simply not being able to keep a solid groove. Once you can play anything in solea without speeding up or slowing down at all, yet still have feeling and dynamics etc, ie NOT STIFF, then, and only then, are you really ready to start stretching time with your phrasing.
In the end, there are not any hard rules about it, as there can be when you need to keep strict tempo and not rush or drag, yet doing it tastefully is important. People who have good compas will know if you do or not by how you phrase even in toque libre.
A good quote from Andre Segovia applies here (even though he is classical guitar and his timing sucked IMO, his words on this regard are profound). He said to a student that was playing sort of at the wrong speed and rhythmically stiff "it is in the very delicate lack of respect for the rhythm that we can define the good artist or the bad artist".
So my advice is to keep working on playing very well and controlled in time, until you are a compas machine, and then when you are ready to stretch it, you will know what to do, it will come naturally.
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RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
Great explanation Ricardo. I agree 100%
I think of the term "Stretching the compas" as being in control of your Aire and interaction within the set compas. When it's done properly it should sound smooth and only draw attention to itself for the right reasons. Suspense and release within the phrasing is extremely important in flamenco.
I agree with Ricardo. You gain a deeper understanding of this when your ready.It makes sense in your mind at the exact time it makes sense in your hands.
I also suspect that Segovia was not a big fan of the metronome.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
Elasticity in solea is something different than in buleria. Buleria or anyother rhythmic style is about interaction with the background accompaniment, mostly its with or contra that. Solea has often speed changes especially when its played without accompaniment. Seguiriya too.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
"it is in the very delicate lack of respect for the rhythm that we can define the good artist or the bad artist".
Ricardo, thanks for the quote with Segovia. I never thought of it that way before..I have to respect the rhythm more. Sounds like some crazy zen teaching. It's 'easy' to play a simple compas loop, but executing it perfectly on the beat at any tempo is quite a difficult task (at least for me), now that I think about it. I'll take your advice and just work on being a compas robot while keeping some level of dynamics in a controlled way (a dance instructor I'm working with says I'm too stiff...and i know it too).
quote:
Solea has often speed changes especially when its played without accompaniment. Seguiriya too.
So speed change for one full compas? Would this be considered out of compas to change the tempo? (i.e. play at 150 bpm and then later at 160 and then back to 150)
But just for the sake of understanding, stretching the compas just means making speed changes inside the compas, but the tempo...would still be the same, right?
Sorry, the post I made is me making speculation on what compas elasticity means without actually knowing what it is...
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
quote:
So speed change for one full compas? Would this be considered out of compas to change the tempo?
depends on who is doing it and what context. If it is melchor de marchena he is not out. If it is Manitas de Plata, then probably yeah out of compas.
quote:
But just for the sake of understanding, stretching the compas just means making speed changes inside the compas, but the tempo...would still be the same, right?
If you are NOT grooving then you are not really keeping a steady tempo. You won't understand unless you are already very comfortable holding a solid tempo with any way you divide up the beats....holding it solid INDEFINANTLY...not for just a little bit. Stretching compas IS changing tempo, but the point is it has to be completely controlled and deliberate. If you are NOT sure, then you are NOT doing it. So keep working with metronome till you are no longer "stiff" as your dancer says.
The best example I can think that shows it could be some live recordings of Camaron and tomatito por tangos or por bulerias. There are times camaron uses his voice to slow down and guitar goes with it very clearly, and even in bulerias when they have palmas there are places that the singer is slowing down the tempo. That is controlled elasticity, in context where the tempo is otherwise very solid.
Here the falseta in the begining is a bit quick then they slow down right away. Then, the letra at 1:00 starts at normal speed and he slows it down just a hair for drama at 1:14 then it picks back up at 1:19. then the falseta at 1:46 is faster by just a hair, then they keep the speed a little up till the end. It is very subtle and very tasteful and deliberate at the same time.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Here the falseta in the begining is a bit quick then they slow down right away. Then, the letra at 1:00 starts at normal speed and he slows it down just a hair for drama at 1:14 then it picks back up at 1:19. then the falseta at 1:46 is faster by just a hair, then they keep the speed a little up till the end. It is very subtle and very tasteful and deliberate at the same time.
Thanks for sharing Ricardo.
After listening I had to find out the album (Camarón Nuestro) and order the CD!
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Ricardo)
wow thats the first time i heard a quite drastic tempo change in something rhythmic like a buleria. im not sure about the meaning of it here especially because they speed up again quick to normal tempo. i have also seen buleriasses going into solea by speeding down. now THATS a pretty cool effect, i love that. but this here is not so good imo.
dararith, what you wrote about accents etc. is about how it works with "compas variations" (i just call'em that way). you change the position of the notes in relation to the compas of the background and what you get is a new rhythm. i hope this is what you were meaning when describing accents? the other effect is when you speed up or down. you just play the exact same rhythm as you would play if the speed was normal. there is no variation in compas, but it is just stretched or shortened in time. these two effects are different and when people talk about palos "being more freely" they usually mean speed changes like in solea and not compas changes like in buleria.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to XXX)
quote:
wow thats the first time i heard a quite drastic tempo change in something rhythmic like a buleria. im not sure about the meaning of it here especially because they speed up again quick to normal tempo..... but this here is not so good imo.
Well, then it is because you are not used to LIVE living breathing cante, you are more used to edited studio recordings where they may even record to a click track, or perhaps a group juerga where too many people are doing palmas to control a stretch like they do. The majority of cante that was and can still be done is allowed this type of freedom by the masters.
Not sure of the "meaning"???? I choose this example because the meaning is the same as could happen in solea or siguiriya or any rhythmic form, yet you have PALMAS and it is more typical for fast palos to stay at one speed, so the example is quite obvious and easy to hear, revealing a DELIBERATE stretching of the compas vs say a mistake with the compas or a loose tempo. I mean come on man, these guys (TOMATITO AND CAMARON) are not hack amatures messing up, and this is a perfect demo of what is being asked about in this thread.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to XXX)
Thanks for the video and explanation. That cleared it up. =D I do wonder if the singer is driving the tempo change in the above video shown...if it was improvised vs planned. If it was improvised, then I cannot detect the change and I gotta go back and listen to hours and hours of bulerias cante. Regardless...I should go back and listen to hours and hours of cante.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Ricardo)
Hey i just saw your reply today
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Not sure of the "meaning"????
With meaning i mean something like purpose in an artistical way. For example a "macho" is used to build up exitement. Or llamadas/remates are used to close a section etc. In this example here they slow down and speed up within very short time, with no reason i could see? There is no new section being introduced by the slowdown, it sounds rather occasional. For example if they continued to play at the slow tempo for a while, then i would get it. You say "drama", but there are so much better ways to create drama IMO, whilst preserving the tempo. I really dont like it.
Of course they are who they are! Probably this is deliberate and a good example for this thread. They also speed up during the falseta, so maybe they intended to do a buleria with tempo changes. So, if this amount of tempo change is standard for cante then my bad. But as i said i have never encountered that of a drastic change (in no live situation nor video). Small tempo fluctiations that i wouldnt register if i hadnt clapped along the video, yes. But not this big of a change.
Do you experienced this alot when performing with singers? Also on stage? Dont you think it kills the groove?? I mean, no matter how well you pull it off, i think it would kill my groove if i had to accompany a tempo change like that.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to XXX)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
Hey i just saw your reply today
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Not sure of the "meaning"????
With meaning i mean something like purpose in an artistical way. For example a "macho" is used to build up exitement. Or llamadas/remates are used to close a section etc. In this example here they slow down and speed up within very short time, with no reason i could see? There is no new section being introduced by the slowdown, it sounds rather occasional. For example if they continued to play at the slow tempo for a while, then i would get it. You say "drama", but there are so much better ways to create drama IMO, whilst preserving the tempo. I really dont like it.
Of course they are who they are! Probably this is deliberate and a good example for this thread. They also speed up during the falseta, so maybe they intended to do a buleria with tempo changes. So, if this amount of tempo change is standard for cante then my bad. But as i said i have never encountered that of a drastic change (in no live situation nor video). Small tempo fluctiations that i wouldnt register if i hadnt clapped along the video, yes. But not this big of a change.
Do you experienced this alot when performing with singers? Also on stage? Dont you think it kills the groove?? I mean, no matter how well you pull it off, i think it would kill my groove if i had to accompany a tempo change like that.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Ricardo)
Damn, i knew i was doing something wrong Or maybe i didnt use polite enough words, that could be also the case... or maybe it is completely pointless to talk with flamencos about subjects like these...
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to XXX)
The singing is more emotional so they slow down a tad for it for more drama. At 1:14 they slow down to accentuate those two tones he sings so gracefully. A letra por guajiras can be really extreme - at times you really have to listen for the syllables as they're being sung and follow the singer.
This is one of my favorites from Camaron, you can hear tempo changes all over, it really puts a lot more emotion into it. I rarely do jaleos but 4:25 makes me wanna SCREAM olé, it’s one of the grooviest things I’ve ever heard in flamenco:
And at 1:06 they accidently both start at the same time
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RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to XXX)
quote:
lol imagine somebody talking to you and suddeenly hee staarts to speeeeeak slooooooooowly aaand youuu goooo whaaaaat theeeeeee fuuuuuuuuuu... ?!
Very funny! There's a lot of times where I temporarily 'lose track' of compas, but depending on where the singer is at the time, I'd know exactly where I should be and would play accordingly. Such is the case heard here, where an inner part of you feel inclined to go slower because the singing pace changes to a slower speed...(because seriously, can we rush 'tiri ti traaaaaaannn tran traaaaaaaaaaann" in an Alegrias? It already has a set compas in the singing that going faster than it should would just feel wrong)
It wouldn't make sense to go faster as you wouldn't know the chords (or resolving chords) that they're singing to actually jump the gun anyway...but at the same time it's frustrating because I start to question whether I'm in compas when they continually modify the tempo. They call it a melodramatic effect, my inexperience-ness calls it stress.
Ah, I guess I answered my own question; it is indeed driven by cante.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
quote:
They call it a melodramatic effect, my inexperience-ness calls it stress.
It is really tough. The best trick is to really analyze the cante and count out the syllibles in the letra - it gives you a much better feeling for where the singer is in the rhythm and you can tell more easily where he/she is stretching the compás.
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RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to John O.)
quote:
The cante lead, the guitar follow
In this case, cantaor > palmero > tocaor ?? Ah, the beautiful woe of the guitarist.
quote:
It is really tough. The best trick is to really analyze the cante and count out the syllibles in the letra - it gives you a much better feeling for where the singer is in the rhythm and you can tell more easily where he/she is stretching the compás.
When practicing for a performance, yeah...but probably not improvisation! Have you ever analyzed the syllabic structure of the letras while accompanying a dancer and singer at the same time during an improv jam? Huh? Have you?
Well I have...and I got out of compas.
Boy, did they scold me for it... Luckily, it was a friendly jam session.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
Yup, I have!
I spend hours a day listening to old recordings one after another and try to play along. I'm not the best but getting better. Letras usually aren't improvized right then and there, it's a load of them that the singer knows, just like a guitarist knows his falsetas. The better you know a singer the better you know his or her letras, and the traditional letras all have the same syllabic structure, there are only a few possibilities. Tomatito knew all of Camaron's letras by heart no doubt. It's difficult enough getting the changes and timing right.
When I accompany Solea or Guajira or whatever, I follow the syllibles. Where the chord change comes is determined from a certain syllible to the next, you just have to instinctively know where to listen.
I'm not saying I count 1-2-3 while the singer is singing. I have the basic structure of that letra in my head and listen to the syllibles to get the speed or where the singer may be stretching. If you can't concentrate on what's being sung while you're accompanying (if you know the lyrics by heart you can forget all this), it's the only way to know where in the letra the singer is. A Polo letra is only 4 lines of around 8 syllibles, you wouldn't think so until you sipher out all the aye's
Mostly though it's about experience, most of which comes from having heard enough letras and understanding the flow. It's like learning a language. At first you struggle to get every word, eventually you don't have to anymore and can concentrate on the important parts.
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to John O.)
quote:
I spend hours a day listening to old recordings one after another and try to play along. I'm not the best but getting better. Letras usually aren't improvized right then and there, it's a load of them that the singer knows, just like a guitarist knows his falsetas. The better you know a singer the better you know his or her letras, and the traditional letras all have the same syllabic structure, there are only a few possibilities. Tomatito knew all of Camaron's letras by heart no doubt. It's difficult enough getting the changes and timing right.
When I accompany Solea or Guajira or whatever, I follow the syllibles. Where the chord change comes is determined from a certain syllible to the next, you just have to instinctively know where to listen.
I'm not saying I count 1-2-3 while the singer is singing. I have the basic structure of that letra in my head and listen to the syllibles to get the speed or where the singer may be stretching. If you can't concentrate on what's being sung while you're accompanying (if you know the lyrics by heart you can forget all this), it's the only way to know where in the letra the singer is. A Polo letra is only 4 lines of around 8 syllibles, you wouldn't think so until you sipher out all the aye's
Mostly though it's about experience, most of which comes from having heard enough letras and understanding the flow. It's like learning a language. At first you struggle to get every word, eventually you don't have to anymore and can concentrate on the important parts.
Wow! I feel as if I need a singing lesson in addition to guitar work! But it makes sense. How am I to accompany a singer if I don't know fully the structure and style and various nuances in the cante? I guess I need to:
1) Analyze the syllabic structure (like a poem--the phrasings, etc) 2) Know where the emphasis falls in the compas 3) Know how long one can stretch a given note and keeping track when it stops in the compas 4) Know what aire the letras themselves may bring out (subjective/interpretational). See if the singer is trying to bring out a certain 'feel' to the compas. 5) Know where (or be prepared) the breaks are in the compas.
And that's just a short list! But that's what I thought of immediately after reading your post. So much to think about! Funny that in cante accompaniment it's the left hand of the guitarist that is responsible for the pitch/tone changes, whereas for the dancer, it's the right hand of the guitarist -- accommodating the rhythmic changes for the appropriate pitch. If I could just play the chords on the 'correct' beats, while being wary of how long I can hold it (either with more rasgueado on the same chord or leaving the notes blank)...then that's 'accompanying' in its minimal effort. Though the aire will be different if I strummed violently while holding that chord vs just one strum...but I imagine both to be 'correct'. Interesting.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
quote:
quote:
1) Analyze the syllabic structure (like a poem--the phrasings, etc) 2) Know where the emphasis falls in the compas 3) Know how long one can stretch a given note and keeping track when it stops in the compas 4) Know what aire the letras themselves may bring out (subjective/interpretational). See if the singer is trying to bring out a certain 'feel' to the compas. 5) Know where (or be prepared) the breaks are in the compas.
:-))) U make it sound like gaining some kind of supernatural power or atomic science phd...
it acctualy dosent need to be that complicated... listen to it non stop when possible and when not possible to play guitar... surround yourself with it, in the car, at work if possible...on the bus on ipod, while on the internet ( that shouldn't be a choir btw...should be doing that anyway because you love flamenco and love listening to it and that's why u here, with each listen you will develop and hear and take notice of more details , u dont have to try for it , you just will)...before you know it you will know and memorize things you didn't know you learned... whenever u feel ready or determined u can just start playing along to cds and copy guitarists who know what they doing, little by little, compas by compas.......eventually you will know what to do on your own
this is ..if you do want to learn to accompany singing...regardless the circumstances ...if there's a will there's a way
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to John O.)
quote:
When I accompany Solea or Guajira or whatever, I follow the syllibles. Where the chord change comes is determined from a certain syllible to the next, you just have to instinctively know where to listen.
Interesting. Could you explain your method a little more detail ? Maybe with a concrete example
____________ Edit : ok for example this one. I'm trying to accomp this and have troubles. But if you could shared your method with this concrete vid, it would be cool.
Norman has posted some of the letras
Mujer te tengo que ver mujer te tengo que ver de rodillas en penitencia por lo mala que has sido delante del Gran Poder
Porque yo te había querido prima mía sin darme cuenta yo te he querido sin darme cuenta ahora que quiero yo olvidarte porque conmigo eres mala qué trabajito me cuesta
Dejarme ay dejarme Dios mío vivir tranquilo dejarme vivir Dios mío a mi manera si no me meto yo con nadie omaíta de mi alma y nadie conmigo se meta
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RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Florian)
quote:
quote:
quote:
1) Analyze the syllabic structure (like a poem--the phrasings, etc) 2) Know where the emphasis falls in the compas 3) Know how long one can stretch a given note and keeping track when it stops in the compas 4) Know what aire the letras themselves may bring out (subjective/interpretational). See if the singer is trying to bring out a certain 'feel' to the compas. 5) Know where (or be prepared) the breaks are in the compas.
:-))) U make it sound like gaining some kind of supernatural power or atomic science phd...
it acctualy dosent need to be that complicated... listen to it non stop when possible and when not possible to play guitar... surround yourself with it, in the car, at work if possible...on the bus on ipod, while on the internet ( that shouldn't be a choir btw...should be doing that anyway because you love flamenco and love listening to it and that's why u here, with each listen you will develop and hear and take notice of more details , u dont have to try for it , you just will)...before you know it you will know and memorize things you didn't know you learned... whenever u feel ready or determined u can just start playing along to cds and copy guitarists who know what they doing, little by little, compas by compas.......eventually you will know what to do on your own
this is ..if you do want to learn to accompany singing...regardless the circumstances ...if there's a will there's a way
Hahahah! Sorry! I have a background in engineering so I'm 'trained' to dissect everything I learn and to not accept the "you just gotta feel it" answer. However, when I got into the world of flamenco, everything was about feeling...so you can imagine how dumb-founded I was when that happened! HAHAHA! I picked the wrong thing to fall in love with...sigh
And yes, all I'm interested in is cante y baile accompaniment...not so much solo. I have many variations of compas tricks, but maybe 2 falsetas total. HAHAHAHAH!
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
quote:
1) Analyze the syllabic structure (like a poem--the phrasings, etc) 2) Know where the emphasis falls in the compas 3) Know how long one can stretch a given note and keeping track when it stops in the compas 4) Know what aire the letras themselves may bring out (subjective/interpretational). See if the singer is trying to bring out a certain 'feel' to the compas. 5) Know where (or be prepared) the breaks are in the compas.
dararith,
If you think about it, that's exactly how you would feel about accompanying Blues if you had little experience of it.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
quote:
Hahahah! Sorry! I have a background in engineering so I'm 'trained' to dissect everything I learn and to not accept the "you just gotta feel it" answer.
fair enough then dont accept it...do what you do best ..from a technical point of view if you are more comfortabile with that...dissect it, compas by compas find what what makes it, facts not feelings... what its characteristics are..what rithm works best with what...do it technically...different approach same result even if at the start you play it mechanically you will eventually learn to feel it...just have to continue to also keep listening and hear more and more details
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to dararith)
counting syllables might help for some things, (try counting Potito's syllables in bulerias LOL) and I know aficionados like to group together cantes that way, but it is the last thing I am thinking of when I accompany. Number one is the KING notes of the melody, the notes that tell me which chord to play. You have to keep compas going and listen for those, no matter if you know the letra already by heart, it can change. Singers can add words and syllables too, and in a way that can be rhythmic. Rhythm is more the important thing about the syllables and rhythms happen on vowel sounds too, so be careful.
Basically you have to keep mindless machine compas (some people call that "feeling it" LOL) and focus on the melody until the KING note tells you to change chord. Even I dont' bother letting the compas of the singers syllables affect my rhythm, cuz anyway it is often synchopated. Same like doing palmas or percussion, you often have to "ignore" the lead rhythm to hold down the groove properly so the lead is free to be "funky".
How to learn what the "king" notes are is the trick. You need to be familiar with some of the basic melodies and keep that as a blue print "subject to change". Then keep compas. In case of cante libre, again it is more about the KING notes again that tell you when you need to change, despite whatever craziness might happen inbetween them with syllables or melismas of the scale.
RE: Compas elasticity and accented beats (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks for your advice Ricardo.
quote:
Basically you have to keep mindless machine compas (some people call that "feeling it" LOL) and focus on the melody until the KING note tells you to change chord. Even I dont' bother letting the compas of the singers syllables affect my rhythm, cuz anyway it is often synchopated. Same like doing palmas or percussion, you often have to "ignore" the lead rhythm to hold down the groove properly so the lead is free to be "funky".
The main prob i have with this Soto's solea is to keep the compas while focusing on the melody. I get lost very easily. I spotted when some of the changes occurs, and i focus on melody for execute them...but when i do it it's as is my compas becomes chaotic. Result, i'm out.
I don't know if this occurs because the strumming pattern i use not fit or coz i can not spot where i am on the copla. So if the syllables method allows to fix this issue, i'm willing to try it (If John is kind enough to give more details on it)
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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