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THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN?
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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 THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN?
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Hi again everyone,
I'm still waiting for my new Flamenco guitar to arrive... as soon as it does, I'll start my lessons with a professional Flamenco guitarist. In the mean time, I've been doing a bit of practice (just on a classical guitar).
Here's the problem... I've only been playing Flamenco techniques for a few weeks, and already my hand (right) is hurting. This is mainly because I've been doing a lot of Rasgueado work. I usually practice it for a few hours at a time, but allow regular breaks to let my hands recover. However, the pain is still there... every time I open and close my hand, there is a slight uncomfortable feeling just between the knuckles of the middle, ring and little fingers. Is this supposed to happen? Obviously my hands are new to this technique, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the lack of previously using the muscles so intensely. But on the other hand (no pun intended!), I don't want to do myself any serious injuries through repetitive strain or anything like that (I've heard some guitarists have badly damaged the tendons in their hands due to repeated movements, and have had to stop playing) 
I thought perhaps it might be due to me doing the technique incorrectly, so I'm considering ordering a book called "The Art Of Rasgueado" see link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786649224/qid=1108646696/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-1192782-0244653?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Apparently, this is a good book, which focuses mainly on doing the Rasgueado. If anyone is familiar with it, please let me know if it is worth getting.
Anyway, is it normal for my hand to hurt after practising the technique for the first few days? As usual, any informed opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much.
James
By the way, I also read somewhere that some people use "nail glue" to harden their nails and make playing easier... is this true, and is it worth looking into for a beginner?
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Date Feb. 17 2005 15:51:21
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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 RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to Skai)
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Thanks guys... your advice so far has been helpful. I fear you may be right about overdoing it, but it's a fine balance between perfecting the technique and doing too much. However, my hand has now gotten slightly worse... yesterday (before anyone had replied to my post) I had my usual guitar lesson. It was a 40 minute lesson, and we spent at least half of that practising Rasgueados over a metronome backing. As I am still waiting for the Graf Martinez tuition book to arrive, we are working from the Mel Bay/Juan Serrano book, and the Rasgueados we did were all "index;little finger;anular;m;index" type. I did tell my teacher my hand was a little sore from the technique, and he was careful to allow my hand to rest regularly by alternating techniques, and also asked me frequently whether my hand was okay. Despite a little twinge of pain, I thought it was. However, later that evening, my hand had appeared to swell up... small bumps in between the knuckles of each finger. I put some Deap Heat gel on the area to help the soreness. But it is now the next morning, and the hand is still slightly swollen. I don't think it's worth going to the doctor for (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think, as another member said, I should stop practising Rasgueados for a few weeks (which is a shame, as I was just starting to make some progress). But I suppose my health comes first... I'll let my hand recover, and practice some scales and arpeggios, etc. Then perhaps when my new guitar arrives, and I have the pro teacher I'll try the technique again. Let me know if any of you have any further advice. Thanks.
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Date Feb. 18 2005 10:20:45
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eslastra
Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
But it is now the next morning, and the hand is still slightly swollen. I don't think it's worth going to the doctor for (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think, as another member said, I should stop practising Rasgueados for a few weeks (which is a shame, as I was just starting to make some progress). But I suppose my health comes first... I'll let my hand recover, and practice some scales and arpeggios, etc.
If pain and swelling is occurring a day after, that's not a good sign. Good health always comes first. Definitely have a doctor look at it and if the pain continues, don't settle for just taking pain killers as that only masks the pain that is always there. As hard and depressing as it was for me to do, a prolonged break from playing really did help rehabilitate my left hand. So take care of that hand and good luck with the doctor.
_____________________________
Eddie Lastra
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Date Feb. 18 2005 12:44:14
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rickm
Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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two cents, when I first did ras, I did so with great vogor, thought I did not experience hand pain, I like you questioned that approach. At one point I had lessons from a professional flamenco guitarist who informed me that most ras, at least 4 and 5 stroke is done as a subtle punctuation. It is through practice that the seperateness of stroke sounds dynamic, not the force. Ras is used as an strong embellishment to accent lets say a ending phrase, but most is a relaxed brush of strings. here is one exercise that was taught to me that might help the hand situation. rest you thumb on the top e string, flick out the pinkie, relax the whole hand, then flick the a finger, relax hand, then m, relax, then i, relax and begin again. I might be wrong and it is a wild guess, but the discomfort your are experiencing is either the force employed against unwilling tendons or the inability of the hand to relax and then fatigue. ras is characterized by seperatness of strike and maintaining that is the hard part. strike, relax strike relax and it should at least be more comforting. also, I use the tips of the nails when i strike so it makes for a click click click click rather than a purcussive cliiiiiiiick hope this explains.
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Date Feb. 18 2005 16:43:34
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to rickm)
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Thanks again guys... the advice is appreciated! As I said before, my current teacher is not the best judge of whether I'm doing the technique 100% correctly. But in a few weeks my hand will (hopefully) be recovered, my new guitar will have arrived, and I will start with the pro teacher who can tell me whether my technique is part of what's causing the problem.
As for the sore swollen hand... fortunately, I'm in between jobs at the moment, so I don't have to use my hand/s too intensely (other than practising the guitar). I've booked an appointment with the doctor. Monday afternoon was the soonest they can do, so I'll keep the hand on ice until then. Some of you seem to think I should press for more than just painkillers (or rather an alternative), so I'll mention that to him and see what he says. No doubt, though, he will tell me (like all of you) to take it easy with the guitar playing for a while. Just opening and closing the fingers on my right hand still hurts a bit, so I'm definately not gonna do any more Rasgueados for at least a week or 2... maybe more. However, my usual guitar lesson is once a week, and I'd like to think that I don't have to stop playing (and practising) COMPLETELY. So (correct me again if you think it's a bad idea) I might still play a few less strenuous techniques... like some scales. Although for Flamenco, I still have to use my plucking fingers, so I'm not sure if it would irritate the situation further. If need be, I could probably go back to playing just the electric guitar (until my hand recovers) which would be using a plectrum/pick, and so might be less harmful. Thanks again for the advice folks... let me know if you have any more of it to offer.
James
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Date Feb. 18 2005 17:07:46
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Scary stuff.
I'll be straight, as I think you need it.
If you actually want to be able to play that guitar when it arrives, stop practicing rasgueados (or anything else, IMO), stop taking advice from a teacher who clearly does not know what they are talking about, and may actually be contributing to your injury.
You are on the fast track to some form of RSI. Some forms of RSI need operations to put right, BTW. The more you ignore what is happening, the longer the recovery time will be. Forget about what 'progress' you think you may have made already - reading your posts above, I will bet it is is time wasted spent practicing something incorrectly anyway.
Listen to what James is saying above, it is good advice.
If you want to invest time in flamenco, invest it in listening: get hold of as much flamenco as you can, familiarise yourself with the sounds of the different palos (styles), learn some basic palmas if you can, there is plenty you can do whilst your hand recovers.
Jon
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Date Feb. 21 2005 9:02:52
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Jamey
Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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James, stop playing altogether. Give your hand a rest completely. Do NOT revert to any kind of playing regardless because you've done some damage there that will not "ease itself out". I've had hand injuries that didn't heal properly and required surgery afterwards to correct. It is a real issue here.
If you are icing your hand (which you should be doing), there are some rules to icing that you should follow:
1. don't apply the ice pack directly to the skin, rather, wrap it in a damp towel (a dish drying towel usually works well)
2. only apply the ice pack for maximum of 20 minutes to the affected area, then allow 1 hour for the area to fully warm up again before reapplying the ice.
THIS SECOND POINT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!! Even though your hand will feel warm prior to that, the bones and denser tissues (like tendons) are still chilled internally and take longer to warm up. If you ice for longer than 20 minutes or if you reapply the ice pack too soon after the last session, your body will automatically try to heat the area up because your hyperthermic response will kick in. I.E. your body will think you are outside in sub zero temperatures and will start to send blood to the area that you iced for too long or didn't allowed to warm up fully. When this happens, you can actually make things worse because your body's efforts to warm the area will cause inflammation that will be worse than if you had not iced at all.
I worked in a sports injury clinic as a physiotherapist's aid for 4 years. I've iced a lot of injuries of all kinds. I've seen what happens when people don't take proper care of ligament, tendon and joint injuries. Believe me, breaking a bone is much easier to deal with and heal.
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Date Feb. 21 2005 14:18:50
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to Jamey)
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Thanks again guys... your advice is appreciated. I've just got back from the doctor, and as you predicted, she wasn't very helpful. She prescribed "Diclofenac Misoprostol" tablets, which are painkillers. She said she wasn't able to offer any advice regarding what to do about playing, other than to go easy for a few weeks. She said it was my guitar teacher's job to know what technique I should perform and for how long I should practise it (so I think I'll wait for the professional Flamenco teacher rather than carry on with my current one). Although she did say that it was common sense not to practise the same technique for excessive periods.
On the positive side, my hand seems to be improving... the swelling is gone, as is most of the pain, with just a slight bit of discomfort between the knuckles of the middle and ring fingers. It is still uncomfortable when I try and do a rasgueado, though, so obviously I won't be doing any for a while. As for other stuff, I'll try and avoid using the fingers on my right hand. I'll take Jon's advice and do more listening and theory work.
Unfortunately, I can't afford to visit a Physiotherapist at the moment, and my doctor seemed to think the injury wasn't serious enough to refer me to one (at least in the condition that my hand is in at the moment). But I will bear what you have said in mind. I appear to have been quite lucky, and with sufficient rest, my hand should be recovered in a few weeks. Thanks again.
James
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Date Feb. 21 2005 17:22:37
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Incompetent may seem a harsh word
Absolutely harsh there Mike!
There are a lot of hard working folk out there.
When I think of all the really competent folk out there, like our Polititians, Police Force,
Government Officials, Food Standards Agency, Child Support Agency, Doctors, Lawyers, Estate Agents, Surveyors, Pensions Advisors, Used Car Salesmen....
Incompetent certainly is a pretty harsh word!
Just maybe just the "wrong" word.
What's that you were saying again about sticking your little finger out?
I'm actually finding rather difficult these days to keep my middle finger in...LOL!
cheers
Ron (In a Grumpy Mood..LOL!)
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Date Feb. 22 2005 21:09:00
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I've had to stop playing for as long as a year and I'm just now getting back to where I can enjoy playing again. 
When i found out about the a m i i and the c a m i i i all just became so easy and realaxed. But thats just me.. 
Probably gave my hand lots of time to gain strength and I easily adjusted to i c a m i later on. 
