What's happened to solo flamenco guitar?

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What's happened to solo flamenco guitar?

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KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

What's happened to solo flamenco guitar?

I have been listening to the new CD's from Juan Carmona and Diego del Morao and they have got me thinking.

What's happened to solo flamenco guitar? Getting tricky with the rhythm is the in thing now. It has been taken to a point where it's relying on percussion and palmas to actual drive the compositions.

It's no wonder that you don't hear many CD's from the top guitarists playing palo's like Buleria, Tangos or Alegrias without any backing or accompaniment. I mean, look at the CD's they have to compete with from others.

Multi tracking,effects and adding additional guitar parts is now quite normal. Maybe we will soon have a guitar orchestra all recorded by one guitarist.

Do you think flamenco guitarists should return to recording without any accompaniment and actually make a SOLO CD?

Do you think modern compositions would still sound good without all the backing?

Should guitarists continue adding more and more effects?

Thoughts?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 9:12:18

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

I saw Diego playing solo and I tell you that he as well as all the other young guitarists can kick all our asses without compás backing. Diego himself IS the rhythm - in person!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 10:32:20

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Do you think flamenco guitarists should return to recording without any accompaniment and actually make a SOLO CD?

yes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 10:35:55

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Should guitarists continue adding more and more effects?

well it's seems yourself in your recording use tons of effect no?

with all that protools and over-reverb...so what?

don't tell me you feel nostalgia for this golden age

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 11:00:26

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to bursche)

quote:

I saw Diego playing solo and I tell you that he as well as all the other young guitarists can kick all our asses without compás backing. Diego himself IS the rhythm - in person!

Of coarse the top players have great rhythm and pulsation when playing solo. That's how they become well known. This is my point. Why not record at least one buleria for example solo? Is the pressure to keep up with the latest sound causing guitarists to feel like solo guitar is no longer enough?

Michel. I agree that it would be cool. I like the new stuff as well but a few more solo rhythmical recordings on cd's would be great IMO.

Mezzo, Yes I like using effects and i like listening to guitarists use them but sometimes it is nice to hear some live stuff with nothing interfering. Especially by the top guys. I love the old videos of paco playing with only his foot tapping accompaniment.

I'll pass on the gramophone though

I'm not that old

I just wonder how much equipment will be needed to reproduce a recording live in the future. Technology is really changing the way flamenco guitar is played. I am happy for it to progress and see where it leads. I am just interested to hear how others feel about it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 11:18:04

michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

your right kris

of course thats a matter of personal taste and i like what modern players are doing. if we listen to a nino ricardo solo buleria he's like acompaigning himself with rasgueos to reach a continuous line, a very tight and compact style of guitar that requires constant changes from one technique to another.

a buleria played over palmas sounds different, it's like outsourcing a part of the groove to the palmas and constructing a dialog with them. the guitar has more liberty (example long thumb falsetas that wouldnt be possible without palmas) and rasgueos are a hardly a bonus

both ways are interesting, but as you told, it would be sad if solo guitar would disappear completely, and i think thats whats happen.

peace

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 11:44:07

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Do you think flamenco guitarists should return to recording without any accompaniment and actually make a SOLO CD?

Good question. I think that just solo guitar tends to get boring, not to mention that there are so many options around to listen to already.

I prefer anything with cante, but I don't like anything orchestra like or too light and fluffy. But if I want some good solo guitar and an old school feel I just go back to Sabicas, Paco Peña, early PDL, etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:02:16

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Technology is really changing the way flamenco guitar is played.

Indeed.
Paco Cepero talks about this issue in this vid.

It's spanish, but go at 4:45, he tells a annecdote about JM Canizares. Canizares asked him how to rasguear well?
Then basically he said that the nowadays guitarist have very bad habit coz they use a lot of reverb (5:30) and then they do not "bash" the guitar correctly...
Then he said also the nowodays guitarist are affraid to break nails so they play soft rasgueos (showing por seguiriya)

Cepero has very great arguments about the guitar(ist) in this vid and i agree with him 150%

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:12:43

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

Kris, you are one master of multi-tracking and also multiple guitars and i find all your videos to be wonderful and inspiring. And i say this as somebody who hates multiple guitars (NOT multi tracking). I see it like this: when recording the artists of today just use the modern recording possibilities. Maybe the old guys would have done the same.
Should we go back to unaccompanied playing? How BORING would that be? The most important effect in buleria is going on and off with the backing. Remove the backing and some parts will loose their excitement and purpose...

The reason why i dont like multiple guitar recordings is that it is impossible to re-play it with one guitar, without spending time on a clever arrangement

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:17:58

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

I prefer CDs with High Quality recording + Cajon and Palmas for backing Bulerias, Tangos, Alegrias, Solea por Bulerias, etc......

A CD with these Palos and without Backing would be totally boring for me.

Video is something different.
But a CD to listen to.....no way

What i personally don't like are too much going on with other Instruments, like Flute, Orchestra, etc...... or 2 Guitars. I prefer one Guitar + Cajon + Palmas, or even sometimes just Guitar + Cajon.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:34:42

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo
Then basically he said that the nowadays guitarist have very bad habit coz they use a lot of reverb (5:30) and then they do not "bash" the guitar correctly...
Then he said also the nowodays guitarist are affraid to break nails so they play soft rasgueos (showing por seguiriya)

More than anything they dont bash the guitar constantly over several minutes with the same range of dynamics (=bash as much as you can)...

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:44:54

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

(=bash as much as you can)

You mean in the J. mcGuire style?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 12:57:47

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to mezzo)

Well as you know before there was solo guitar in flamenco there was percussion. First things to start accompanying that singer was (palmas, knuckles, stomping etc.) Many times when there is nothing else but guitar going on the guitarist sometimes ends up over playing in my mind with a zillion notes and little space for breath even with the old masters. I agree with Arash really great live for guitar junkies like us, but when there is some percussive accompaniment there is a little more room for the guitarist to use time and space to build and swell and pull back and push forward to improvise even. I think it comes together a little better overall with some percussive help / interplay. Kind of how the cante is better for me when there is the interplay and response going on with a guitarist. I would like on a CD the guitarists to do like many singers have done, and put one track on their with just their solo instrument.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 15:11:19

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 16:04:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

I was not so impressed with Diego's album. More the music then the arrangements or percussion etc. I felt he did not have a lot of great music to offer and his recording was very repetative with some weak arpegios, although that could be a fault of the recording. In contrast his work with singers is really amazing, so i was surprised. I think just the music itself with no percussion won't sound so amazing either.

in the old days solo guitar had to fill up all the rhythmic spaces a lot. Palmas are really cool percussion, very flamenco, and give meaning to synchopated guitar phrases and add life to a solo guitar performance IMO, while giving the guitarist space to leave "holes". Of course maestros such as PDL, Tomatito, Gerardo etc have been caught live performing very rhythmic pieces with no backing at all. But they always seem to have more life to me with at least palmas.

About cepero, he has some awesome rasgueados. But see the video of him with camaron and camaron's mom singing. With all those palmas you still can't hear even his "bashing".

Thank god for amplification after all.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 16:30:27

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
I personally like guitar with maybe some palmas for rhythmic tracks but I get tired of ten bulerias, four tangos and a Rondena CDs. I'd like to hear some verdiales or Jaberas in the old style, some guajiras when played well (like Franco), some Rosas, a zapateado/tanguillo etc, and maybe...a danza mora for old times sake.

Theres tons of stuff in the old style. In old recordings. I dont want new recordings to go back in time, where we already were. I want new recordings to be one step further.

quote:

who is flamenco for?

It is for whomever the audience is

I mean, hell, not even gitanos have a homogeneous taste. Some even play crappy things, which other gitanos wouldnt even call flamenco maybe. Art is not a property of one group of people.

quote:

did not really care about solo guitar

The topic was accompanied guitar vs. unaccompanied.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 16:31:41

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

well saying my personal opinion I usually listen and enjoy Solo Cds more than Cds with backing , I mean I enjoyed listening to diego's orate but not as much as I enjoy listening to paco's En vivo desde el Teatro Real, Recital de guitarra, Fantasia Flamenca or Fabulosa Guitarra de Paco de Lucia or even Paco Peña's A Flamenco Guitar Recital .
Solo cd's are much more powerful than the backed ones imo and they present the skills and creativity of the artist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 17:34:28

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

So far if guitarists make great music that I like, they could use any effects they like.

I'm not looking for methods but for the music that comes out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 17:41:44

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

Do you think modern compositions would still sound good without all the backing?

Listen to Riqueni's "Flamenco" album (I believe it was released in 1987

). Olé! I was two years old at the time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 18:29:02

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

Thanks for all the replies, I have to go to work so i will share my thoughts later.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 20:03:56

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

Riqueni's "Flamenco" album (I believe it was released in 1997).

i think it was 1988 (or maybe '87) Anyway, it was his 2nd album, the first was '86, and the third '90, so in between those two!

so that's over twenty years ago now.

interesting thread, i think about this stuff too.... to some extent i think flamenco belongs to the people born into it, growing up with it and living it, so it's up to them what they do with it, it's their culture. But then i still have my own tastes and preferences.

things change, for better or for worse, sometimes for better and for worse. sometimes it seems like for each thing gained something is lost, and vice versa again.

re the palos thing, there are old recordings from way back that seem to be all fandangos, malaguenas and granainas, and others that seem to be all solea and siguiriyas, so i guess it's fashions and phases.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 22:45:58

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

I think the question whether with or without percussion, palmas, also strongly depends on the composition or let say if it is more modern or more traditional stuff.

i mean, lets just imagine this bulerias without percussion.
IMO it would totally loose a huge part of the excitement without the Cajon, which is driving perfectly together with the Guitar:

now lets have a look at some elder buleria from Paco. In this case you could easily leave out everything else, and it would sound the same, or maybe even better with pure Guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2010 23:44:46

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

It seems like we all agree that only solo guitar can get a bit boring. I guess we are issuing the challenge to the top guys to play us something really rhythmical with just guitar that sounds as cool as stuff with palmas and accompaniment.

Another thing i am finding with the access we have to flamenco on the internet now is that i feel completely overloaded. After Nino ricardo, Sabicas, manolo, Paco etc..It seems like everything has already been done now. I don't see how technically you can beat Gerardos Jucal album. Guys like Diego are taking rhythm to the extreme. Vicente has made his mark.

Juan carlos romero defines the very relaxed prettier style while keeping the rhythm interesting. The caño roto guys covers the more intense high speed rhythmic stuff. It's rare to hear something that doesn't remind me of something else. I like it all but sometimes feel like there is nowhere to turn even with all this inspiration from so many great guitarists. I don't really know what i'm trying to say here

Just thinking out load.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 4:16:11

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

It seems like we all agree that only solo guitar can get a bit boring.

I don't agree with any such thing. Depends on who's playing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 4:56:55

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Woops

Sorry prominent Critic. I just meant the people who had responded so far. My mistake. Please have your say?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 5:26:30

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I was not so impressed with Diego's album. More the music then the arrangements or percussion etc. I felt he did not have a lot of great music to offer and his recording was very repetative with some weak arpegios, although that could be a fault of the recording. In contrast his work with singers is really amazing, so i was surprised. I think just the music itself with no percussion won't sound so amazing either.

I think his strength lies within his ability to continually change the direction of the flow of the music without losing it. Very innovative in that area. I like that he builds his music around his own strengths and technical ability.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 5:40:57

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Kris, you are one master of multi-tracking and also multiple guitars and i find all your videos to be wonderful and inspiring.

Thanks deniz, I appreciate you saying that. I am no expert but i am slowly learning.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 5:47:07

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to Arash)

Here's Diego completely solo. He don't need no cajon!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 6:12:24

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

That sounds great! He could have put it on his cd just like that. I would have enjoyed listening to just the guitar just as much. Nice find CuerdasDulces

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 6:29:09

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: What's happened to solo flamenco... (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

Here's Diego completely solo. He don't need no cajon!

I think the more casual listener might lose compas listening to that
bulerias. Its ultra syncopated. With out the gravity of a cajon or something
stating the compas, its easy to get lost. When that happens, its harder to fully
appreciate the phrasing.
Not saying one or the other is better, im just thinking out loud here.

In my opinion, if its great playing, it can be solo or whatever. Great is great. I LOVE Diego's stuff. Killer...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 6:43:38

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