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I personally don't want a guitar that was built in 3 weeks. Even by me! I want one in which the luthier took his time.
Gaps and other imperfections are in a lot of handmade instruments. No big deal to me if these issues aren't structural. If someone wants perfect, buy factory made.
I've seen guitars from guys like Reyes, Gerundino and Dominguez that had imperfections. Bindings that weren't perfectly joined. Tiles missing from rosette blocks that were just filled in with glue. Gaps where the neck meets the sides. Uncleaned glue squeeze out, and these were done by this "experienced" builders. Why? because they are handmade. They are not always going to be perfect.
What is the best price for a guitar? what is a good handmade guitar worth? It's worth as much as your willing to pay for it. What's it worth to you? the interested buyer. This will differ from person to person. There is not right numerical figure.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
People who are self-employed have a tendency to barter goods and services with other trusted business associates. It's doubtful they pay taxes on such transactions although they are required to do so. That might make up for the lost benefits, co-pays, etc., that employees receive. [/quote]
There's probably a similar argument to suggest that employed staff have a tendency to spend, on average, 15 mins per day masturbating in the company toilets...
However, going back to the photograph - the soundport inlay is really well worked, whether you like them or not it would be dificult to deny the workmanship - I guess this is what the photo was meant to show?
The neck joint is not the best example of Anders work - check out some of the previous images of his guitars.
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Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music - Angela Monet
Cosmetics are important especially on poor sounding guitars but if the thing sounds and plays like a dream no player cares. Only the collectors and the perfectionist who dont play very well.
Olé! im a bit surprised you said that though. Collectors, they just ruin the market price for the players IMO. Its just an expensive toy for them. A guitar has to sound good and play well. Thats the main function, not to look good. Or even built to mechanical perfectionism, thats not what a guitar is made for either.
There's probably a similar argument to suggest that employed staff have a tendency to spend, on average, 15 mins per day masturbating in the company toilets...
That's just waste. A self employed luthier makes use of this. It's called the making of 'peg dope'.
Not quite. Bartering is common among small businesses—especially in the trades and construction (which I’ve been a part of—on and off--for over three decades). If I had been aware of this sort of thing on a few occasions I would have dismissed it, but it’s more common than I had expected and can add quite a bit to a person’s bottom line. Remember that most of the benefits—excluding health care—index from the person’s income. The less they make the less the company contributes. The cited figure of $125K is far above the average US income. I was thinking more along the lines of $20K to $40K per year. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a small business person to save several thousand dollars per year and on occasion to do far better. When you’re on your own being resourceful is critical and bartering is part of this.
quote:
I can tell you are not self-employed, but have always relied upon a company to look after you.
You’re wrong and it is presumptuous for you to say this. It makes no sense to me how you could draw such a conclusion from what I said. I’ve been on my own for at least 13 of the last 20 years. My life would be a lot easier financially if a company was looking after me.
quote:
Sorry if I flew off the handle there Pgh...
I guess that's just the problem of discussing stuff involving different cultures and governmental systems etc and assuming things are the same in each country.
There's probably a similar argument to suggest that employed staff have a tendency to spend, on average, 15 mins per day masturbating in the company toilets...
I based my comments on my experience and I suspect you did the same with your comments as well.
The cited figure of $125K is far above the average US income.
Yes it is, but keep in mind, this is the estimated income of one of the most respected builders in the world. My guess is he barely made ends meet for a lot of the years he was building. At least before the economic melt down, most new college grades in the US wouldn’t be happy with anything less than $45,000 to $50,000 starting salary.
I would have to believe most builders after fifteen to twenty years in the trade, would be more than happy to make $45,000. But keep in mind, the young kid making $50,000 is really closer to $60,000 with all the benefits.
Long story short…it’s a tough way to make a living. They have my greatest respect.
Nobody here is really saying a guitar is built in less than two weeks, I guess it can be done as evidenced by some examples.
But if a luthier takes 2 months and during that time builds 6 guitars, each guitar took about 2 months, but the synergy of doing something on an craftsman's assembly like basis is pretty powerful. When I built a house addition, I cut all the studs I need in one fell swoop, indeed now-a-days you buy the studs already cut to the right height for an 8 foot high ceiling. I don't measure and cut each piece individually - I try and cut as many at the same time as I can with a jig if at all possible.
I personally saw that kind of thinking at the luthier's shop and it makes sense.
Anyways, I gave an example of a luthier that puts out more than 30 guitars a year. That is less than two weeks a guitar.
If you are only doing 10 guitars, well then you have time to build a boat! I think building a boat is way cooler than building a guitar anyways.
I am sure a certain proportion of a luthier's income comes in tax free... not saying I have seen that, but I would be tempted and probably would do it every once in a while cause I don't get the benefits. Lets face it, the underground economy is pretty huge, the higher the tax regime, the bigger it is.
And who said the price of material is $500 per guitar? Can we see the cost breakdown of the materials please? I suspect it is less...
And who said the price of material is $500 per guitar? Can we see the cost breakdown of the materials please? I suspect it is less...
DeVoe and Green use Sloan tuners that run about $200 alone. Add a good Srpuce top and East Indian sides and back, I bet it's pretty close. Brazilain is a grand or more for a set of backs and sides.
Depends on where you get the materials and how much you paid for them when you got them.. but if I just went out and bought everything I needed from LMI or something it would be about $350 for "run of the mill" materials. The tuners I put on my last guitar were $350 (Fustero)
500,-€ (read euros) is ok for good quality wood, medium Q tuners and case.
Cathulu: I build boats in my sparetime as a hobby... ¿Are guitarmakers allowed to have sparetime and hobbies?
Ruphus, I was rude because you were rude in this sophisticated intellectual way that is so annoying. Besides, you questioned my professionality based on something VERY loose. I dont accept that.
Cosmetics are important especially on poor sounding guitars but if the thing sounds and plays like a dream no player cares. Only the collectors and the perfectionist who dont play very well.
Olé! im a bit surprised you said that though. Collectors, they just ruin the market price for the players IMO. Its just an expensive toy for them. A guitar has to sound good and play well. Thats the main function, not to look good. Or even built to mechanical perfectionism, thats not what a guitar is made for either.
Dont be surprised Deniz. I´m a player myself and if I wasnt a builder I wouldnt look very much on the looks of an instrument. The guitar that suited me the best would be the prettiest in my eyes and ears. I dont think I´ll ever forget that. Another thing is that I´m a builder and I have to present myself and my guitars in a decent matter. So I have to have at least 1 good looking and playing guitar at home, but I very often go out with the Swing around guitar with all the dents and the white tapplate.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
am bartering with my neighbour as he is a self-employed builder and I do web site stuff. Working well so far. I get trade prices and he doesn't get ripped off with technical talk. I think there is a bit more of it around in the current climate.
I hear what you are saying Escribano (& Pgh), but when it comes to bartering services it is often difficult to evaluate the value of each other's work except in money terms. I've found that it's usually more hassle than it's worth.
Sure, I might do a little job for a neighbour and they may hand in a bottle of wine or something to say thanks, but these kind of jobs don't make any significant difference to your income.
Generally for bigger stuff, it's usually just easier paying each other in pound notes.
After all, that's what the stuff was invented for.
I dont think it is fair to say that the faster a guitar maker is the worse his instruments are in terms of craftsmanship or sound quality and I feel fairly insulted by this insinuation.
I consider my self to be a fairly fast guitar maker. Alot of my speed in building comes from being very organised in the workshop. I am hardworking and very dedicated to my work. I still only work on a very structured bases 10-18:00 Mon-Sat.
I have only been building under my own name for the last 2 years and have nearly hit 50 instruments. IMO my speed and quality in all areas has increased over the last two years. I dont have a single instrument for sale and also have a fairly nice waiting list. These are not the signs of a guitar maker that is lacking in quality.
I'm with Rufus on this argument. A Great sounding guitar can be made in 3 weeks. Sure the finish(polishing) maybe lacking the lust but hey from what your saying this doesnt matter .
I've seen plenty of students over the last 7 years of my guitar making career and have to say that I have seen fast builders build badly and slow builders build badly. I've seen slow builders build great guitars and fast builders build great guitars. There are no guidelines that say taking your time makes things perfect.
When it comes to pricing I would love to charge as much for my guitars as I think I can sell them for. I feel there are people in this world who arent anywhere near as hard working as I am or anywhere near as skilled and earn way way way more money than I do. Go figure.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Stephen Eden)
quote:
ORIGINAL: SEden
Sure the finish(polishing) maybe lacking the lust but hey from what your saying this doesnt matter .
Hehe -
When evaluating work time, breaks taken to let layers harden up don´t need to be counted in anyway. If after assembly there be time taken for accomplishing the finish step by step, periods in between of the guitar `hanging on the clothesline´ mustn´t count as work time, as I guess could be agreed on.
Congrats on this beautiful guitar... I'm sure that it sounds as beautiful as it looks. I remember you saying that this guitar was based on the plans of an 80s Reyes that you had examined as opposed to the blancas you made which were based on the plans of a 2003 Reyes if I recall correctly. Is the guitar different in tone and aggression to the blancas you made? (apart from being a negra of course) Thank you. Regards,
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Stephen Eden)
quote:
When it comes to pricing I would love to charge as much for my guitars as I think I can sell them for.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. But if you have a waiting list then its a sure indication that you can charge more. And if you could charge more you could work less: 20 plus guitars a year is very hard work imo. Having said that, I don't know why any player would pay more than £3000. There are so many of us building great guitars for less than that (yourself and Anders are two outstanding examples). There are so many luthiers out there that its become a very competitive business I think. I'm thankful to be doing it on a small scale just for the joy of it.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Stephen Eden)
quote:
I've seen plenty of students over the last 7 years of my guitar making career and have to say that I have seen fast builders build badly and slow builders build badly. I've seen slow builders build great guitars and fast builders build great guitars. There are no guidelines that say taking your time makes things perfect.
I completely and totally agree. But I think this whole discussion about the time you need to build a guitar is completely stupid. Its a personal thing and it depends a lot on how you´re funcioning in your life. Sometimes you´re just faster than others. Also how many hours do you put on office work, on reflecting on how a new bracing system should work. Or the hours that you use playing your guitars in order have a level good enough to understand what you are building. There are so many factors that cannot be put into a time schedule and you guys trying to put a fixed time on the building of a guitar just show that you dont really understand the process and you would be surprised on how many hours many of us put into our work
And another thing: The talking about prices is far out as well. Why does a Ferrari cost so much more than a Mercedes that cost so much more than a Hyunday............
And you forget one thing. Prices of guitars in guitarshops is always higher than when you buy directly from the builder. And the builder gets A LOT less if selling through a shop. Some 5 years ago, GSI wanted to sell my guitars. They would have full rights of selling in the USA and they would take 50% of the sales price. I kindly said no.....
Which nicely ridiculous my forgone assumption that you might "still be learning". ;O)
It has not been so much about fixing the time guitar building takes, than balancing time frames of months as a background for pricing.
Much more than such however, indeed, it should be of sense to illuminate upcharges of distributors and dealers while trying to circle in what major cause is when a couple of weeks of the one finally amount to expenses equalling yearly savings of the other. Next in line the oddity of tax slices straining each and every instance of supply and service ( unloaded on the end consumer ), with in the meantime states curiously staying broke notwithstandingly.
In my opinion whereabouts basically worth examinating and sensing disproportionate and corrupted circumstances.
While admittedly there existing more obvious conditions to inspect than in the guitar market.
Meanwhile, as a lose example: If you have a lawyer in Munich writing a standard letter for you, and be it just main text of one single sentence typed by his humbly paid assistent, it will cost you 500 € flat. Actual investment for him alltogether: 5 bucks?
There exist excessive clues to rethink what´s going on in regard of standardized economical disproportion.
Congrats on this beautiful guitar... I'm sure that it sounds as beautiful as it looks. I remember you saying that this guitar was based on the plans of an 80s Reyes that you had examined as opposed to the blancas you made which were based on the plans of a 2003 Reyes if I recall correctly. Is the guitar different in tone and aggression to the blancas you made? (apart from being a negra of course) Thank you. Regards,
Avi
Actually, I think I built this one after the 2003 design, although the 80's Reyes design is probably more like Vicente Amigo's Reyes guitar. I'll try out the other plan later.
I tried to balance this one more toward a classical sound since a lot of classical guitaists like this ideal. But the guitar has plenty of flamenco articulation to it for fast picado and rasgueado. Also, it suits my thumb-work fine.
Which nicely ridiculous my forgone assumption that you might "still be learning". ;O)
It has not been so much about fixing the time guitar building takes, than balancing time frames of months as a background for pricing.
Much more than such however, indeed, it should be of sense to illuminate upcharges of distributors and dealers while trying to circle in what major cause is when a couple of weeks of the one finally amount to expenses equalling yearly savings of the other. Next in line the oddity of tax slices straining each and every instance of supply and service ( unloaded on the end consumer ), with in the meantime states curiously staying broke notwithstandingly.
In my opinion whereabouts basically worth examinating and sensing disproportionate and corrupted circumstances.
While admittedly there existing more obvious conditions to inspect than in the guitar market.
Meanwhile, as a lose example: If you have a lawyer in Munich writing a standard letter for you, and be it just main text of one single sentence typed by his humbly paid assistent, it will cost you 500 € flat. Actual investment for him alltogether: 5 bucks?
There exist excessive clues to rethink what´s going on in regard of standardized economical disproportion.
Ruphus
I don't understand a single sentence in Ruphus's last reply...
Good luck to Tom or anyone else who can get high prices for their instuments. No justification of the prices is needed, if it sells for a certain price, that is what the player has valued it at.
RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Jeff Highland)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
quote:
I don't understand a single sentence in Ruphus's last reply...
Good luck to Tom or anyone else who can get high prices for their instuments. No justification of the prices is needed, if it sells for a certain price, that is what the player has valued it at.
I understand Ruphus but it took me awhile by reading his posts, which in my estimation is a foreign language to him, before I could grasp what he was saying. Anyway, I think he is doing pretty good, considering the big words he uses.
And what is it that makes people think my guitars are expensive; compared to what?
Look at the Dammann guitar for 30,000 to 40,000 dollars and tell me that my guitars are too much. One of my customers wanted to trade up for a Dammann guitar and I asked him what the difference was...did it have higher volume, did it have better articulation, was it easier to play? He said, No.
But he told me that the Dammann had a chocolate syrupy sound that he liked. I understood that quite well, as all guitars have something in their sound character that appeals to their players.....Well, you can't win them all :-)
And as it was, he sold that guitar to RE Brune in Chicago with the hopes of buying that Dammann, which I don't think he ever did, and Chaconne Klaverenga bought it.
Well, I think I can discern a difference between a Ferrari, a Mercedes and a Hyundai, and I can realize why one costs more than the other.
But on the Damman, Blackshear, Eliasson, whoever I totally agree, there is probably no real difference except for subtle nuances and cosmetics. So the cost difference is something unrelated to build quality which was discussed and no need to bring that up again!
I had the opportunity to briefly play and listen to a Conde (repaired) and I listened objectively to it and two Sigurdson blancas along with another foroflamenco member Gemelo. I could not distinguish which was the Conde. The difference is very subtle imho, and may be due to the strings installed. If it is that subtle, then the difference is not worth piles of moolah imho.
There will also be an opportunity soon to listen to two matched pair Sigurdsons, one a blanca and one a negra.
I will also throw in a Raimundo Flamenco for comparison.
So that is potentially six guitars to compare and listen.
Hopefully the Raimundo sucks big time cause it is a cheap and built who knows where.
PS I don't understand a single word Ruphus is saying, or more correctly I understand the words but the meaning would take me too long to decipher so I don't bother!
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im a bit surprised you said that though. 
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