RE: Blackshear/Reyes style

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

If a guitar is over priced then it wont sell.

Just to clarify, for my part ( ergo, not Cathulu´s), when I mean "over priced" it is not being referred to conditions under capitalistic doctrine, but under inherently coherent aspects.

However, still under decoupled assesement as under capitalistic exegesis your observation won´t completely match, as very much so items being sold through the roof for goods- and produce-unrelated circumstances like price rigging, artificial shortage in availability, market protectionism, image / prestige matters, marketing tactics etc.

Manipulation none of which will account to guitars of Tom, but quite in terms of your principle statement.
Reality is that many goods are being sold notwithstanding over pricing.

Ruphus

In other words, what you are saying to Cathulu is that he should understand that there is a pricing munipulation going on in the market but it stands to reason that we have to shop wisely and know who is manipulating these prices and who is not?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 16:05:25

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Just listening to the mp3 ( http://www.savageclassical.com/music/mp3/samslullaby.mp3 ).

Personally me liked the characteristics of the 2004 flamenca a bit better, as it seemed to combine rasp with lushness in such an extraordinary way, while this new example, despite relative short sustain as appropriate for a flamenca, appearing much like a classical. - At least with the piece played ...

Yet, not less in response and forward than the 2004 flamenca, and to me another confirmation of your brilliant craftmanship, Tom.

Guess I would had not ressorted to steelers for over a decade many years ago, if I only had such a responsive nylon guitar at hand like this.

What the recording is concerned, not to deny its quality as such, but for to support evaluation there should better had been no close miking, but more distance like at least 1,5 meters or more. Seems like the room would had well allowed doing so.
Also I would had appreciated to hear some more rasgueados as well as some notes further up the neck.

What an art luthiery can be!
It just blows me away. :O)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 16:13:44

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

In other words, what you are saying to Cathulu is that he should understand that there is a pricing munipulation going on in the market but it stands to reason that we have to shop wisely and know who is manipulating these prices and who is not?

Yes, Tom, that for one indeed.
And secondly, that if economics were to be rooted in general, most everything including luthier guitars would be much more affordable. With luthiers and pretty much everyone ( including fellow creatures / environment ) doing well nonetheless; only the creaming off at the end of the current economy model not being in place, hence no ( all effecting ) exessively rich around, but democracy and conditions of reason instead.

Best,

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 16:21:00

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

Well, can't quibble with that Tom... a cogent summary!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 17:14:28

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Personally me liked the characteristics of the 2004 flamenca a bit better, as it seemed to combine rasp with lushness in such an extraordinary way, while this new example, despite relative short sustain as appropriate for a flamenca, appearing much like a classical. - At least with the piece played ...

I can tell you that this current instrument is better than the 2004 but it takes a certain style of playing to make its voice compare. And with some playing, this guitar will be a great one. This guitar has a lot of testosterone; even to the 7th and 8th frets, with a capo. I've done some thumb work like Joaquim Amador up in the 7th fret position and better yet, its pulsation just about blew my shop door off its hinges :-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 22:41:24

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

What the term "pulsation" is concerned, I was positively surprised to find the aspect meant with it being discussed on this board.

I had tried to describe exactly that with my own words and start a discussion on another forum for classical guitar where this aspect seemed to be hardly discerned / considered.
As a reaction all I got there was superficial denial of what is being named "pulsation" here on Foro Flamenco.

Anyway, for me the merit you mention is very comprehensive, when resonating capability staying preserved even up the neck, and simultaneously the pliability sensed under fingertips.

With the playing style you mention, I recall that the player with the 2004 specimen wasn´t digging into the strings all too much either, with yet the rasp of the guitar evident still. The recording on Safavage Guitar shows a firmer touch of the player, however with too little nail / too much flesh of the thumb touching the basses to reveal potential raspyness.

All other sonical criteria, like super responsiveness and substance of tone being well demonstrated and clearly excellent.

After all the portion of rasp being a matter of taste anyway. I guess an example like my vintage Ramirez flamenca which has a brilliant but very round tone to be to the full satisfaction to many.

I personally lust after rasp. The more the better. At best with substance in the same time.
... And ideally even rasp and romantic flavour simultaneously. ( Like say a Perez-flamenca / Marin Montero-classical hybrid or so.)
Something I don´t remember to have heard anywhere and of which I don´t know if it would be possible at all. Possibly both characteristics being mutually exclusive.

What do you think; can both be had in the same time?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 14:29:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

With the playing style you mention, I recall that the player with the 2004 specimen wasn´t digging into the strings all too much either, with yet the rasp of the guitar evident still. The recording on Safavage Guitar shows a firmer touch of the player, however with too little nail / too much flesh of the thumb touching the basses to reveal potential raspyness.

I personally lust after rasp. The more the better. At best with substance in the same time.
... And ideally even rasp and romantic flavour simultaneously. ( Like say a Perez-flamenca / Marin Montero-classical hybrid or so.)
Something I don´t remember to have heard anywhere and of which I don´t know if it would be possible at all. Possibly both characteristics being mutually exclusive.

What do you think; can both be had in the same time?

Ruphus

Well, first off, it's amazing to me that you could hear the lack of a thumb nail in that recording. You must have super sensitive speakers or hearing that goes beyond my ears. Richard told me that he had broken his thumb nail right before that recording.

Secondly, there is a possibility to have both rajo and melody if the guitar action is set properly. But many players like a clean sound now-a-days.

I try and set my action fairly low to where there is just a little rasp but more melody. And I think that most guitar designs are capable of this but I also think that there are designs that are more compatible with this scenario. I like a slightly flat hollow sounding guitar with a little rounded edge and with a little rajo.

You could imagine a guitar with a 6th string that drops off into the bowels of the earth but I think this is taking it a little too far :-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 15:27:43

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Thank you, Tom,

I just love to learn about particals like that!

So, if rasp is only about the strings rattling against fret bars*, I suppose all one needs to be a neck and fretting straight enough to allow lowering action to corresponding minimum.

Okey-dokey, I was about one other time taking nut and saddle out of my Rodriguez estudio anyway, and possibly even dear to approachb also the 2As nut, which I didn´t so far for its saddle being down on zero with then slightest change of humidity potentially influencing the action a tad further. - Which so far however didn´t happen / eventually neither shall in the future, encouraging me to now try and get that thing a bit more raspy.
Something so far refrained from for having no replacement bone blanks at hand.

* I used to imagine that it had also to do with what me would name "micro resolution" of the guitar.

Thank you for the compliment.

Yes, I have been lucky with the soundcard in my internet computer and use proven headphones for listening to detail.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 17:36:27

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

In closing, I would like to mention that Juan Maya would ask Manuel Reyes to build him a guitar with the fingerboard slightly convex, to get that flamenco rattle when playing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 18:03:01

HeavyWood

Posts: 37
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: San Antonio, TX

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom,

Due to a heavy work schedule, and big work computer crash,
I regret not getting to play this guitar before it left your shop.

It would have been a great experience, but my playing would
have probably been an embarrassment anyway...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2010 5:38:27

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)

Look at luthier prices this way guys. Say a luthier charges $6000 for a guitar. Yes, that is expensive. Some people will question why and complain how ridiculous that is. My answer. The guy needs to make a freakin living! There are a lot of expenses in building a guitar.

Take a guy who makes 24 thousand a year at his job. Brings home $2000 a month. In 3 months he makes $6000. That's about how long it takes to build a guitar. It's not any different. 24K in our economy is nothing! so you try to build 3 guitars a month and make more. I applaud the luthier, or any craftsman who charges what he feels his work is worth. If I feel the price is too high for my budget, I won't buy but I'll never question it.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 14:12:25

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

In 3 months he makes $6000. That's about how long it takes to build a guitar.

What one brings home, won´t equal what he has available. These days basic supply eats up a rough 80-90%. For many it even becomes 100% and more.
At 2 grand net a month ( which most don´t even have ) quite so, especially if the person has a kid or two to feed.

Further, a good handmade guitar most commonly takes about three weeks to make, not three months, even if it´s been told otherwise at times.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 15:17:53

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Further, a good handmade guitar most commonly takes about three weeks to make, not three months, even if it´s been told otherwise at times.

Actually, Richard Brune told me that it takes him 50 to 60 hours to build a guitar and finish it. But for me, it takes about 300 hours, including having to french polish it.

I like for my polish not to shrink as much into the wood pores but even at that rate it shows shrinkage over a period of about a year.

I could hang the guitars in a dry room for that amount of time and then sand the finish smooth again, and go back over them with more polish but it just isn't compatible for me, nor do I imagine it would be for many other builders.

I once built a classical guitar with french polish in 12 days; only once :-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 19:15:33

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to TANúñez)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 19:25:14

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom, sounds like Sigurdson's output matches the one week or so build time.

PS more power to you that you can get top dollar, your are not the only luthier capable of commanding high prices. There are many, and some get even more than you. So good on you and chapeau to you.

But I can still think it is crazy...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 19:35:34

TANúñez

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 5 2010 20:12:07

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 20:11:51

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

If there are luthiers out there that can build me a guitar in 3 weeks, I want names. None of the makers I deal with have ever gotten a guitar in my hands built from start to finish in 3 weeks.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 20:13:42

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

Tom, sounds like Sigurdson's output matches the one week or so build time.

PS more power to you that you can get top dollar, your are not the only luthier capable of commanding high prices. There are many, and some get even more than you. So good on you and chapeau to you.

But I can still think it is crazy...

And then Not buying it, nope. Why not hire an assistant to do a lot of the chore work and the non-skilled work like french polishing (I think some luthiers farm it out, others do their own). You can make more guitars. But then you got to have enough turnover to keep an assistant busy.

It is a tough business and chapeau to the guys that are in it and make a living at it.

My personal feeling is that a luthier built guitar should be available for about $1500 - $3000 bucks depending on what you ask for in the build. That is a fair price imho.

I guess supply and demand can drive up the costs from a luthier that becomes "hot"but I think that is crazy - that is my opinion and I don't see myself changing it. Then you start to look for a new luthier with lots of talent but undiscovered or under appreciated. It is not rocket science.

FYI, Sigurdson makes at least 30 flamenco guitars a year and he has a wait list (based on the numbering of his guitars, for example I have number 361), not sure how many classicals - I know he makes a few. He is a one man band. Once you make a few you know how to make the efficiently.

OK, enough rambling!

................................................................................................................................

I think you have a very good understanding of what you want, and this is OK with me. You are right about looking for lower prices, if you can find them, and this means you are a savy shopper. There's nothing wrong with this.

I don't sell to everyone, and this would actually be self defeating at my age, as I couldn't handle the many orders that would come my way, if I lowered my prices.

I'm not looking to get rich but enjoy what little time I have left on this earth, and for this reason, I choose to make very few guitars a year and try to live a life to enjoy family and supply a few guitars to those who would like one of them to play on.

And you are also right about my guitars not being the most expensive in the market. But they are somewhat different in tone and playability and this is what sets them apart from the rest.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 20:14:50

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to TANúñez)

Actually, I take my post back. I've built several guitars and realized that I could probably finish one in 3 weeks if I pushed it. The makers I deal with build many at a time which is why they give me the 3 month time frame.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2010 20:18:40

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I'm sure Stephen Hill told me once that him and a crack squad of guitar builders made a guitar in 24 hours. I dont think the polish was all that though. Still I't was a prize in a raffle when the old Lewes Guitar Festival used to run. I'm almost at the output of 1 guitar every two weeks. perhaps 2 1/2 weeks. There are a few things I could do to increase my out put but I like where I am at for the moment.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 8:29:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Further, a good handmade guitar most commonly takes about three weeks to make, not three months, even if it´s been told otherwise at times.

Ruphus

The easyest thing in the world is to write things like the above on the internet. So just 2 question:
1) How many guitars have you made? I ask because you seem to know very deeply the amount of time it takes. I´m impressed. 3 weeks. Not more, not less.
2)Can you take that down into smaller pieces. How long does it take to shave a peg? To finetune a soundboard, to French polish ETC

I could build guitars faster than I do but the quality would go down. Building guitars is not like going to the office. If you have a bad day you cant "hide" and we all have bad days and we all have to know when we shouldn´t work and thats difficult because we all have to deal with bills and greed. You cant concentrate on calibrating a soundboard, touching, feeling and comparing down to a 10th of a milimeter if you are not COMPLETELY centered.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 8:49:04

Stephen Rees

Posts: 32
Joined: Oct. 4 2007
From: Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

....... we all have bad days and we all have to know when we shouldn´t work and thats difficult because we all have to deal with bills and greed. You cant concentrate on calibrating a soundboard, touching, feeling and comparing down to a 10th of a milimeter if you are not COMPLETELY centered.

I wholeheartedly agree !! ..... today I am not in my workshop as my mind is on other things.

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Stephen Rees - UK
www.reesguitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 9:19:13

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Clinging on justified details as you mention won´t change things on average.
With three weeks relaxed approach is included, not even eight hours daily as common workers being due to.

Actually two weeks would be more reasonable for a routined and concentrated maker. Contemplated working included.
It is what came out from conversation with luthiers, and appears reasonable to me in the same time who shows some talent / experience in general craft and woodwork himself.

Concerning the other side of the scale, hence expanded time at the work bench, I am the first to understand that, as I love to sink in and take myself heaps of time when handcrafting or on artwork.

Tom himself is such a person himself, who loves to take himself a lot of time.
For a very special guitar he once took himself a dozen years to complete it with the utmost of dedication. ( Or even longer; don´t remember exactly.) Yet, take a look above what the man has to say about average / general conditions.
( Which being why I admire him for his sincere, sober and uncorrupted attitude, anyway.)

Taking oneself time far above common time frame is totally legit, yet no justification to charge customer for.

I for instance am increbily slow at work, as I just need to employ my imagination once again every other time in between. Just uncapable to develop and accelerate routine.
For that I initially had a lot of trouble in the dental labs I used to work in, where lab leaders inquired works to be finished roughly three to four times faster than the guild had settled standard time frames for.
But in the end the chiefs had to accept that if they wanted workpieces of the quality I accomplished they had to a degree accept my characteristic as a slow one.

How about you?
Are you slow for your creative ways or because of lacking experience?

Whatever it is, from what I know commonly three weeks has been more than enough yet for finest guitars to be build. - And confirmation of accomplished luthiers like Tom seems more than enough to me.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 10:28:43

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Stephen Rees)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephen Rees

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

....... we all have bad days and we all have to know when we shouldn´t work and thats difficult because we all have to deal with bills and greed. You cant concentrate on calibrating a soundboard, touching, feeling and comparing down to a 10th of a milimeter if you are not COMPLETELY centered.

I wholeheartedly agree !! ..... today I am not in my workshop as my mind is on other things.

Absolutely agreed on that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 10:37:15

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Again Ruphus

Could you please tell what you base your calculations. How many guitars did you in fact build? Do we all work the same way? Do we have the same goals?

Its so easy to just write and write on the internet and unless you go into some deeper explanation on what you base your writings on, I have absolutely no respect of what you write.

I consider myself a routined and concentrated builder and the two weeks that you consider appropiate for an experienced builder is absolutely not possible for me. Oh yes I could do it, but my output would be of a poorer quality.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 10:47:39

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I consider myself a routined and concentrated builder.

Hello Anders,

I have built no guitars and am convinced that I must not specifically for to have a general idea of how much it commonly takes doing so. The more as luthiers themselves on diverse incidences have mentioned how long it usually takes. Just in this very thread: Take a look above.

In one of the threads here I saw a picture of one of your recent instruments. The gaps at the joint between side and neck made me assume that you are still in the learning process. ( A notion not intended to put your work down.)

Why do you want your case to count as general requirement in working time?

As I said, if it takes you longer, that should be just fine.
Besides, as you lean on against general / average time estimation, why did I not see you revolt against the three months initially quoted in the first place? Was that no generalization?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 11:34:48

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Again Ruphus

Could you please tell what you base your calculations. How many guitars did you in fact build? Do we all work the same way? Do we have the same goals?

Its so easy to just write and write on the internet and unless you go into some deeper explanation on what you base your writings on, I have absolutely no respect of what you write.

I consider myself a routined and concentrated builder and the two weeks that you consider appropiate for an experienced builder is absolutely not possible for me. Oh yes I could do it, but my output would be of a poorer quality.

I agree that not all guitar makers need to be put in a box that says everyone has to build a guitar in so many days. And I also think that it is imperative that each maker know his limitations on time so that he might build the best quality possible.

Richard Brune can build a great guitar in 50 to 60 hours and it takes me about 300 hours. I think the result of any guitar of merit should have its own time line and be presented in its own way. This is apparently necessary for all builders to come to terms with.

And the end result will always be standing on its own merit, whatever the final cost is. As it is, I try and take the time that I need to finish out a project and then charge what I need for it. If the market is not compatible with my charge then I have to lower my prices. It's as simple as that.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 11:49:33

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

The gaps at the joint between side and neck made me assume that you are still in the learning process.

I own an Anders guitar, a beautiful one - as have many on this forum - and there are no gaps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 11:56:08

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

I own an Anders guitar, a beautiful one - as have many on this forum - and there are no gaps.

So do I. No gaps or flaws with mine.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 12:08:37

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Just went and tried finding the thread with that picture, but to no avail.

Should I have been mistaking in that the guitar was of someone else ( though me rather certain that it was an Eliasson ) suppose someone else here might remember a picture with such a joint. - If watched close enough, naturally.
( It occured just ~ 2-4 days ago, while frisking the "todays posts".)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2010 12:30:57