Counting Sevillanas

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Counting Sevillanas

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cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

Counting Sevillanas

Some count in threes, some count in sixes. I usually count in threes cause I want to maintain a waltz feel.

What is the advantage to counting in sixes, any thoughts?

However my main question is that I often like to tap my foot to a sevillanas in twos? What is it about sevillanas that makes me want to do that? Does anybody else do that? Is that a bad habit I should break?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 17:49:06

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

Sevillianas are obviously a "3-form" and pretty much downbeat, so i cant imagine it being a good thing to not feel it in tres.
On the other hand i am a very bad sevillanas player

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 18:35:44

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

What is it about sevillanas that makes me want to do that?

Polyrhythm.

Because you've got two's and threes going on at the same time.

You can tap in 2's OR 3's.

Depends on what your ear locks onto...

Sevillanas is kinda like Fandangos de Huelva, only 180 degrees out of phase.

(In Traditional Flamenco, the recurring heavy beat would be in 3's in both cases...that's what gives Flamenco it's unique sound.)

Both can even be felt as a slow Bulerias rhythm IMO ..tac tac...tac tac...tac tac...which is a mixture of 2's and 3's at the same time..

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 18:38:52

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

Like in Fandangos - whatever helps you to do it right. The more ways you know how the better.

Tapping in 2's is okay as long as you can still accent the uneven beats correctly. The chord change probably makes you wanna do it. If you count in threes and tap in 2's it can be confusing though, right? 3 taps per bar is easier than alternating 1 and 2 taps per bar.

It's definitely a 6 for a few reasons.

In the basic compás you always have the chord change from 2 to 3 but not from 5 to 6, so the melodic pattern is a bar of 6. You can accentuate this rhythmically by doing the chord change on 2+ and leaving the 3 open, the 4,5,6 however is straight. This really gives the feeling of a 6 beat.

If you start your intro two beats earlier, which a lot of guitarists do, you'll notice you hit the tonic for those two beats - you are actually giving two upbeats which are 5, 6.

Once you start your intro if you leave out the 6 once it's a sign that you want to end your intro 6 beats later, when you leave out the 6 the second time your intro is over and often the palmeros will clap contra for those final 6.

It's all theory though and doesn't matter if you know what you're doing. You can count in threes if it helps you. For the letra though I think it's easier to count out 5 bars of 6 than 10 bars of 3 - it's too many bars, you can lose count.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 18:55:04

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to John O.)

Thanks Ron and John. I definetly feel the twos very strongly. I don't mind the off beat accent. I have to do it in Bulerias when I count in twos which is the way I like to tap it.

Cheers!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 19:34:54

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

It was also more natural for me to tap my foot in 2's but really the accents are on 1,4 and 5 of a six beat compas.

There is a strict arrangement to sevillanas including some breaks/starts on these accents so whatever we call them we need to feel them and know exactly where they are.

Once I adjusted to tapping my foot on 1,4 and 5 things got much better. I was playing for singers at least once a week for a few months earlier this year and I got quite good at Sevillanas. Foot tapping on 1,4,5 really got my Sevillana to swing (also it's much easier to follow the arrangement). I didn't particularly like Sevillanas before playing for singers. I haven't played any for months now, I'm sure I've forgotten them all!

It can be helpful to put down the guitar. Listen to palmas solo compas tracks and do palmas along with it, then listen to some performances and do palmas along to that.

Then pick up the guitar, which needs to drive the aire and compas.
There are many ways to fit over the compas of any palo but do we want to play flamenco or play along to flamenco? Are we feeling and expressing the rhythm or fitting over a pattern and catching a ride?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 21:44:39

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

im getting used to the way jason teaches it on his site. counted in 6s. if the compas starts on the 4 then the falsetta's seem to land on the 1, and the accents end up on 4 5 and 1

this is whats helping me to get it right anyway

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2010 22:05:29

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

Just curious, what speed does everyone play it at?

Seems to me that 120 bpm in 4/4 time playing 16ths is as fast as most advanced guitarists would be comfortable playing cleanly, which is about 160 bpm in Sevillanas 3/4. I can't play that fast yet - maybe I never will get there.

I guess it is easier if you are playing for cante and just strumming chords to compas, that wouldn't be to hard to maintain 160 bpm, but I am talking about guitar / dancer versions without cante though.

Ravenna suggest 135 bpm as a comfortable speed for most dancers. I can just maintain that speed, with a few mistakes in long picado runs cause my left hand can't always keep up with my right hand.

Jason considers 170 bpm about right and 135 bpm a slow sevillanas from my brief correspondence with him.

Right now I like playing it say at 120 bpm though... so I am stuck in molasses I guess!

So what speed are you playing it at?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2010 17:45:11

duendesoul

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 10 2007

RE: Counting Sevillanas (in reply to cathulu)

I used to count in 2's but once I started accompanying a dancer I realized that 3's is the way to go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2010 20:26:37