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Blackshear/Reyes style
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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 RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cathulu
$9,600 bucks! I can't figure it. I guess it will sell, but the price imho is insane - I will never buy one of your guitars... way to expensive! I guess I should never say never cause I might win the lottery. How can the price be justified? This is an honest question cause I can't understand it. What is a fair price for a luthier built guitar? How many hours go into one typically. What is the basic material cost? I got a luthier built guitar and it was no way near that price. But then I bought a guitar, not art.
Is it because it is ART?
Well, I agree that wood cost is not the objective here but what the market will bear. I can remember back in the 70's when I sold my guitars for $125 but those days are gone, my friend. I never could afford a quality instrument like a Barbero or a Santos, so I learned how to build guitars; building my first guitar in 1958.
I took a look at some of the quality Luthiers' websites a few months ago and realized that I had fallen behind their prices, considerably, but I decided to keep my prices lower, as I don't need much money in my retirement. I have been where you are many times in the past and this is not condescending when I say, gain experience and pay your dues, and then you will understand.
If my guitars were not able to sell for a price that is quoted by the stores that sell them, then it is a fair assumption that they would not sell. In any case, I wish you all the best in your search for a guitar that you feel is worthy of your talent, and one that you can afford.
And I would like for you to know that I'm one guitar maker who enjoys the chat lists on occasion. I wish all the best for you.
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Date Nov. 26 2010 3:52:34
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
Is it because it is ART?
I think so, yes.
I agree with what you see. Markets are out of hand, with the guitar section not being the most disfigured yet by far .
A reasonable way of economizing would be keeping pricing of goods in relation to moneys equipoise / average wages, but instead at the brink of deserting the planet, culture and economy aren´t as much about reason than about inasinity anyway, indeed.
That about contemporary markets, and from there prices for handmade guitars up in the tenthousands of dollars.
Next there is the attraction aspect of some guitars that can make musicians give in into the inflated marketing, even despite of tight budgets.
As an example you might notice how not a few who play their very expensive instruments in videos on youtube, considering the background ( room, furniture or what have you ) seem to be with humble living-standard, yet spent a huge amount for a guitar.
Notwithstandingly, fortunes paid for luthiery that can be bordering magic.
Analog to say audio engineering.
Since the upcoming of digital consumer technology, millions got themselves recording gear to track music.
Yet, only some dozen engineers being at the top, delivering distinctively better sonics than the crowd; - yet even if left with just low-end gear.
Most of their special qualification to my observation is the ability to predict.
They know how a current single tracks properties will be blending into a future mix. ( And from there set up the individual miking etc. - Often times self-confident enough to omitt / cut out considerbale bandwith of frequency irretrievably from start.)
Something so simple to describe, yet so special to do that it takes decades, some good luck and special talent to come together.
Behind fine luthiery I suspect something very similar. A neat gift of prediction.
Since the Nazi term of "degenerated art" and afterwards during the Cold War the US answer to Soviet "Realistic Art" through total arbitrariness, the term "art" has been blured and undefined to no recognition.
But to me it is a rather profane matter, greatly described once through my art teacher ages ago. He said something to the extent of "Art means the combination of idea and proficiency".
In sight of luthiery that would be adressing the specific picture / properties in mind the luthier has while building ( = idea), and his craftmanship to fulfill it ( = proficiency ).
Now, there always occures the occasional exception among batches of mass produced guitars. Lucky strikes that jut out from their siblings.
On their own account, after all enchanting specimens that one could be content with throughout his musical life.
But, compared to all around masterfully accomplished instruments you might find that the difference reminds of the one between family cars and sport cars.
"Sport cars" in the sense of resonating units so immediate that it feels under your fingertips as if there was rearing before you even spored.
Or how notes won´t lower in volume when you travel up the trebles.
Or overtones in delighting harmoy. Or separation; bold fundamentals. Playability ...
All refinement that can spoil you to no return.
Just lately I saw a post from someone on this board who considered quitting guitar playing altogether, just because he had to give away his two concert-level instruments.
While I completely agreed with his fellow players who marked that one can do with a medocre instrument as well, - which I personally defintily would -, me felt the frustration of the poster as understandable.
You can make a search on youtube for a "2004 Blackshear" flamenco guitar. If you let yourself sink in and listen attentively, despite the imperfect audio, I am sure you will perceive those characteristics of that guitar that potentially can make oneself constrict to eating cripsbread only to safe up for insanely expensive guitars like that.
Ruphus
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Date Nov. 26 2010 18:20:34
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cathulu
Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan
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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Yes, I quickly checked your website and saw your price list before I commented!
Not sure about the guy with the long winded post, what was that all about... 
To me it is hype, and not a reflection on a fair market value. It is someone becoming popular, for whatever reason, and then they have a wait list and they can justify higher prices because of exclusivity, nothing more. It is the getting the guitar from a specific luthier, rather than getting the guitar. It is a potential investment. It is irrational behaviour! But we all get sucked into it.
Imagine what would happen if PDL endorsed and played Eliasson guitars. I am sure the price would be able to increase substantially, yet the guy and the instrument are the same.
I am sure there is no real objective difference or sound improvement between Blackshear and Eliasson or other decent luthier guitars. Yes, some difference in sound, but not a bad difference. Even some amatuers produce amazing instruments. It is a fancy wood box.
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Date Nov. 26 2010 19:07:35
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
Well, I don't think I directly said they don't deserve it, but I guess I implied it. I just don't understand it. Henry Ford wouldn't either.
Call it reputation, popularity or whatever.
There are luthiers that build guitars and feel uncomfortable about charging over a certain amount believe it or not, they do not understand the pricing of guitars either.
But I guess if you have a wait list of 100 guys, charge more and get a wait list of 10. That is supply and demand. I get it. I am not a commie, I believe in the capitalistic system. But it is crazy, no?
But if you think you are getting a much better instrument or more money went into it other than some more expensive tuners, well I think generally people may be kidding themselves...
Hy cathulu
Your comments have provoced me to place my opinion about this issue as well.
I'm an amateur luthier and i'm still far away of selling my instruments for such a price as Tom does it, but i have to say that this price is a justified price for an instrument of that quality. I have built six guitars so far. I have donated my first guitar, the second was sold for 800 dollars, the third was crapp and ended in the ofen, the fourth is not yet finished, the fifth is still in my possession, the sixt will be sold for 2000 dollars.
Don't forget, that it takes 200 to 300 hours of work to build a good guitar.
Apart of the work we have to buy wood and store it for years before we can use it.
We need to buy tools and stuff in order to be able to build guitars and we need a place where to build them. So that's a lot of investment we have to put into this, before we are even able to build and sell an instrument and get a return on invest.
Nowadays most people look for the fast money, but guitarmaking is everyting else than that. We have to study many diffferent issues and we often learn by trial and error. That costs us materials, time, effort and also money. All of this is needed in order to earn experience and improve our building. Form a commercial point of view it can be frustrating to see, how little people are aware of all this things and how many people underestimate our trade.
So the money Tom askes for his guitar is justified and i think that every luthier should get a fair price for his guitars.
If we are talking about fairness, then i have to turn the lance, because what is really unfair is not a price that is too high. Nobody is obligued to buy a guitar that he cannot afford. What is much more unfair is that some luthiers are forced to sell their guitars under value because they need to survive.
I often missed that i didn't managed to become a professional guitar maker, but if i have to read this type of discussion then i have to say, "thanks good i'm not a professional luthier". I'm not depending on the money i'm earning with luthiery. I can sell my guitars or not. I don't care and i'm not going to sell my guitars under priced again.
regards
Armando
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Date Nov. 26 2010 20:07:53
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
If a guitar is over priced then it wont sell.
Just to clarify, for my part ( ergo, not Cathulu´s), when I mean "over priced" it is not being referred to conditions under capitalistic doctrine, but under inherently coherent aspects.
However, still under decoupled assesement as under capitalistic exegesis your observation won´t completely match, as very much so items being sold through the roof for goods- and produce-unrelated circumstances like price rigging, artificial shortage in availability, market protectionism, image / prestige matters, marketing tactics etc.
Manipulation none of which will account to guitars of Tom, but quite in terms of your principle statement.
Reality is that many goods are being sold notwithstanding over pricing.
Ruphus
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Date Nov. 27 2010 15:25:01
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