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RE: Music theory is way too complicated   You are logged in as Guest
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coreydefresno

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest

Dear Romerito and Esteemed Foro Members,

This is the video interview to which I referred.

http://www.youtube.com/user/flamencoprofessor?feature=mhum#p/c/B982E0E43F90B688/0/P4DbOLU4960

Cheers!
Corey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2010 21:57:33
 
marrow3

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire

quote:

beer works well

yes-all too well unfortunately
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2010 22:10:16
 
marrow3

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain

quote:

It becomes a crutch if you are thinking about it especially when you're improvising.
Do you think that Bill Evans or John Coltrane were thinking when they improvise? Because they were not, yet they know there theory inside and out. But I'm sure that in there practice rooms they worked out chords and the different scales that can be played over them to create musical lines


no argument here...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2010 22:14:55
 
Ricardo

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno

sorry been busy lately and can't find time to catch up here. About cante jondo not going to Am....Bamberas?????? And also to cory or whoever, did manolo ever talk about how the singer of solea alcala for example calls in the supposed Am chord with a final G#??? I say G# for an E chord is good but I always wondered why we need A minor. Same thing would help Manolo's idea, instead of E7-> Am, many guitarists harmonize this part just F maj7(#11) sort of the same idea as manolo has, preserving the modality over the "tonal" chord move. This happens more often in por medio key (A-Bb instead of A-Dm) simply because of the nature of the chordal fingering and sound of open strings ringing. IN fandangos even, playing por medio just for the intro we play Bb instead of Dm, unlike in the arriba key.

Anyway I think manolo makes too big deal about V-I moves in guitar accomp because often the guitar is not really harmonizing so much as giving clear compas markers by change chords.



Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 15:03:23
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 15:48:33
 
coreydefresno

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest

Dear Kevin,

I was referring to Am as in the context of Solea, where it ends the phrase on Am on beat 10, you know, before the Am G F, that are typical in the next phrase on beats, 1,2, and 3.

Un cordial saludo,
Corey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:08:45
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:16:19
 
coreydefresno

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny

Yes
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:19:32
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
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From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno

i bought his theory book, bit dry, would have liked some more musical examples and studies.
maybe my view will change when i read it again sometime in future.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:27:53
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:31:28
 
henrym3483

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From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny

apparently he is doing exactly that, but it is time consuming. i heard he's doing something of an encylopedia of his work.

enrique vargas is also working on a strong compendium of the cano roto school and modern flamenco in three vol's. no due date for pub though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:35:16
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 16:42:05
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 17:26:20
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 17:29:59
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno

quote:

First one should read Manolo's book in order to know what he means regarding this E7-Am being lethal for flamenco.


Ok, now that you have read it please tell us what he means.


quote:

I did, you should read it, if you don't understand i, I am pleased to be of assistance to you in understanding Manolo's complex Andalucian tongue.

CW


quote:

Sobre la Teoria - Manolo Sanlucar
Corey translated it but I don't know when that will be available.


this thread is starting to look like a publicity stunt for Corey's translation of Manolo's book. I have a pretty good grasp of theory, and I've just read all 9 pages and I still don't understand Manolo's theory.... I'm starting to wonder if Corey is either intentionally not explaining the ideas very well so we have to buy the book, or if he doesn't really have a good enough grasp of the ideas to explain them properly....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 17:36:53
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 18:00:51
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

About cante jondo not going to Am....Bamberas??????


Swamp Gas. Oh sorry, this isn't the UFO forum. Bamberas is not Jondo. That is the answer Manolo would give through his medium. I'm not sure why this E7 - A minor thing came up or what purpose it has served. But its funny and moderately nonetheless....

There was a Solea de Triana example I gave that never received a reply. But I gave up and went over to attempt to start something a little more practical for people to get started thinking about Chords and western harmony in general. Sure Manolo Sanlucar doesn't think its the right way to approach flamenco harmony, but thats just one man's opinion, albeit a great man.

Its not going to hurt anyone to learn jazz nomenclature for harmony. Its simply a way of naming chords which is where this thread was before we got sidetracked on Manolo's unique theories on flamenco harmony.

What seems to have happened was that a Phd. (Corey) got into it with another (Romerito) while other members who are versed in music theory also Turnermoran and orhers... tried to help shed some light as to why we thought music theory is not over complicated. The 2 EDUCATORS came in and basically proved the point as to why no one should really give a crap, because in the end its just a couple of pencil pushers in a pissing contest.

To get back to the original ideas of the post...... I think it would be just fine if someone wanted to burn it all down and start over with a better system. Probably won't happen.

There are people however who can explain things in ways that can lead a student down a creative path. I agree with many who think stumbling around in the dark can bring about VERY unique results and surprises and I recommend any studied musician to "turn the lights off" and do some stumbling around aside from their flexing of the brain.

Either way is fine. Corey is more than capable of explaining theory to students and Romerito too. I for one am glad I don't have any accredited degree in music to defend.
Corey's book with Juan Serrano should be fine to explain some concepts. Thats why I left a link to it. For those who wanted a different approach I started another couple of threads much to the disdain of the moderators and members interested in reading them due to my much deserved punishment for attacking publicly Dr. Whitehead. The positive that has come about is reassuring. We have 2 new members Corey and Joven who can help us all know better the thoughts of Manolo Sanlucar. I for one think that is an amazing addition to the many wonderful and serious discussions that go one here amongst our esteemed members.

Thanks Corey and Kevin for really shedding some important light on why music theory can be an important tool in the musicians bag of tricks.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 18:01:10
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

First one should read Manolo's book in order to know what he means regarding this E7-Am being lethal for flamenco.


perhaps LETHAL is too strong a word.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 18:05:00
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 18:29:31
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest



I like both of you very much. Relax.

you are right.... I'm an ass.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 18:34:49
 
Joven35

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire

Hey, thanks Jason! I am glad to be on this foro with people who share a similar interest. I am kinda tired of having to explain that flamenco is not a pink bird to people in my neck of the woods (I do not live in Fresno). So it is good to be among like minded individuals.

And hey, White Russians are my favorite drink for a reason…HAHA! [;D]

Life is a spectrum. No one should just take one view point that is obviously limiting. I think we can all agree on that. I hope. Or not, I really do not wish to argue. That is just my view.

And I second Romerito, if you do not like Manolos theory, OK. That is fine. There are lots of people who think he is crazy for saying the things he says. I do not. I enjoy the man, his works and consider him a dear personal friend. This is the reason Corey and I work with him and try to help him in (I will say here he does not need us for anything, we are blessed to have the opportunity to work with him and I thank God everyday for it) how ever he thinks we may be of use. And I will say that by us having our pieces of paper we are in a better position to help.

And you do not have to buy our English translation (which will not come out till sometime in 2011, I hope. These things take time.) you can buy the Spanish version. We are not trying to promote anything…well, ok, maybe FlamencoProfessor.com – shameless plug – but it is already FREE. Use it or don’t. There are many great and wonderful resources out there (Jason, Ricardo, Adam, Jose, and many many others).

This discussion is interesting to me in that I think I will write a paper on this subject (sorry, this is what I do I am a nerd) because if fascinates me the misunderstandings going on and I want to try to make it simpler.

Ok, this is too long already. I wish everyone well on their own paths to self discovery in exploring this amazing art which we all love. And if you chose, you can come and study with Manolo in 2011, in Fresno. We are even working on getting scholarships for people. This is also one of the benefits of having a fancy piece of paper with letterin' on it; they let you play with other people’s money and I would gladly give it to someone who wants to learn.

Best to all,
Javier Alcantara-Rojas

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His amazing technique is one that never loses touch with the spiritual improvisation and direct communication style of flamenco and which does not make virtuosity a goal in itself, but communicates deep sublime emotional qualities. - Manolo Sanlucar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 18:43:44
 
coreydefresno

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire

It is strong, that is Manolo's word.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 19:49:45
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2010 20:06:04
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno

quote:

It is strong, that is Manolo's word.


Corey, what word would you use?

quote:

That is why I like/dislike you.


Sorry Kevin. We had an opportunity to help some people understand theory better and not be so reluctant to check it out and we f-ucked up. You, me and Corey. We got all into our own BS and in the end this thread which was going well and had the potential of clarifying just turned into the same old back and forth. I take responsibility for my part. I think the 3 of us proved ourselves to be sh-itty teachers and forum members. My apologies to the people hoping to get some clear information on this thread.

That E7 to Aminor thing threw me for a loop, because it really does go against much of what I know or at least choose to practice. There is still that Solea de Triana thing and the first thing a cantaor usually does in a Malagueña in the salida is E7 to A minor. Bamberas also does this. But I don't need clarification. I am going to go with my gut on this one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 0:08:49
 
veet

 

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From: L.A.

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno

quote:

perhaps LETHAL is too strong a word.


Just curious - was M.S's actual word "letal" or perhaps "fatal" ?

In English, they're very close in meaning.
In Spanish, there's a world of connotative difference. "Fatal" is how you answer "Como estas?" when you want to say "I'm feeling lousy."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 0:13:42
 
coreydefresno

 

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to veet

Dear Veet,

He uses both words, and a few more that are not fit for print.

Cheers,
Corey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 0:20:04
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 6:56:38
 
mezzo

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From: .fr

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Joven35

quote:

There are many great and wonderful resources out there (Jason, Ricardo, Adam, Jose, and many many others).


Like Dr. Diaz.
I know this person is considered a pariah around here and he certainly deserves it. With all these weird phrases like "tips never explain before on the Internet..." etc
But there is some good material on his yutu channel for those who are willing to ignore his suspicious behavior (claro!). For example he points some interesting exercices for improving the rasgueados

And at least this guys is not too much theoritical, he shows what he means by playing the guitar instead of blablablaing...

oupss sorry

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 12:08:22
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 15:13:29
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2010 15:15:04
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