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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 15:17:18

Joven35

Posts: 21
Joined: Nov. 4 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

Wow! Yeah, I agree Jason. Discussion is a good thing. I am really glad this is going on.

So, yeah, um, there are allot of posts and I would like to chime in but I can only do a few right now. This Thursday I will have more free time. Monday-Wednesday are my busiest days.

1.) What I should have said that made me so happy the first time is the post about "notes" and "pitches". This is a fundamental misunderstanding by many music students. Here is some food for thought: Are there 12 notes? Are there 12 pitches? What ever your answer will have a profound impact on your thoughts about music (and I am not talking about Microtonality). Here is another one: are all intervals created equal? And yes, I am talking about traditional western ecclesiastical harmony, not some Asian or Near Eastern music.

2.) The comments regarding the ancient Greeks and them not all being created equal.
Well, you are absolutely right. There were individuals (Pythagoreans) who held a very strict and religious view of music, and then there were individuals who saw the more practical applications (Aristoxenus), and still even more there were the common every days Greeks who went to the Gymnasium and studied music like any good Greek citizen (All good Greek citizens knew how to sing – it was common courtesy). Even more, when ever a play came to town, all the citizens would go and hear the play SUNG not read by a chorus of men. Or how about the citharoedus, professional chitarode players who accompanied singers and even had large competitions to see who was the best – like we still do today.

3.) There are allot of questions being asked that are either addressed in articles we already wrote (flamencoprofessor.com – shameless plug) or in Manolo's book and he is very clear in his writing about his thoughts on many of the things individules are bringing up. I do not want to take up time to disscuss things that could be solved by just simply reading – unless you do not know where to look, then I can help you in telling you where to look. I hope this does not sound mean or like I do not want to be helpful but I just do not want to keep repeating myself.

4.) About not using one system to analize another…I whole heartly agree on this one. We should stop trying to analize flamenco (Cante Jondo) from an Ecclesiastical view point because we run into trouble. I am not saying you can not do this but adjustments must be made. I am sure this is obvious to most.

Umm, I hope this is helpful. Sorry about the breveity I have to get going. This is a great thread. I hope keeps going.

JAR

p.s. I only replyed to Romerito because he was the last person to comment. Thx, Romerito.

_____________________________

His amazing technique is one that never loses touch with the spiritual improvisation and direct communication style of flamenco and which does not make virtuosity a goal in itself, but communicates deep sublime emotional qualities. - Manolo Sanlucar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 16:24:03

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

Manolo says he wrote in all of the palos, even the "chico" out of respect to his people.

CW

Farruca does not count Jason, nor does Zapateado

How about Malagueña? Does that count?

Someone should probably call Juan Habichuela and tell him its not right to go from E7 to A minor.

How about Solea de Triana?
@1:32 in the video E7 to A minor. Definitely not "Chico"

If its in the cante and we are urged to imitate the cante in our composition, then if we do and harmonize the melody we are imitating with a cadence that has countless historical examples by the greatest cante accompanists in history..... we are making as "fatal" error?
hmmmmmmm. Doesn't add up for me. But I am still open minded.

How about that older than 200 years thing? still wondering about that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 16:41:07

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Remember chaps, no "hands round the throat" stuff...

Keep the discussion lively and the side-remarks out, no matter how tempting and always read your post again before pushing the OK button.

Never post if you are angry or are having an adrenilin rush. Take a half hour to calm down first and everything will be fine.

I think this discussion may just prove the point that theory is indeed too complicated. The average young guitarist may see this discussion and run the other direction as fast as possible.

You have 2 phd's and an uneducated smart ass (me) arguing on whether or not its OK to move from an E7 chord to an A minor chord in a "Jondo" palo like Solea. The alternative offered is a Bm7(b5), but in order to make it work you have to alter it by putting an E in the bass which puts it right back into an E DOMINANT configuration. E being root, D(the 3rd of the "half-diminished") is the 7th.

Reminds me why I dropped out of college and hit the road. Point of the original post proven. Screw theory! Make the music in the way you hear it in your head and your heart and don't let any theoryTARDS (me included) bully you into thinking its wrong to do so.

_____________________________

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http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 17:16:42

coreydefresno

Posts: 68
Joined: Nov. 5 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

Dear Romerito,

I agree with you regarding putting the E bass below the B-half dim chord, does change it's function. It becomes an (E7b9 sus 4)
This is what Vicente does, I only made a side note about that.

I in no way was justifying using it in that way, only pointing out that Vicente does use it that way.

Manolo uses the B half-dim as a dominant to Am.

Fandangos de Huelva are not Cante Hondo and may use E7-Am.

All my best,
CW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 17:20:26

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

Dear Jason, I hear you, everyone in the course asks this at some point.

right before they drink the koolaide.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 17:22:05

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Joven35)

quote:

We should stop trying to analize flamenco (Cante Jondo) from an Ecclesiastical view point because we run into trouble.

We should Do less ANALyzing altogether and do more accompanying. If you are thinking about all this crap while you are sitting next to a cantaor then you are missing the point and more than likely the tonos as well.

Off to teach myself.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 17:29:13

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:30:32

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 17:49:24

yourwhathurts69

Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

i haven't seen this mentioned yet, but it's something i want to point out. music theory is just another tool to help us make better music. do you need to know theory to play great flamenco?? of course not. you don't need arpeggios, either.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:09:48

coreydefresno

Posts: 68
Joined: Nov. 5 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

I did, you should read it, if you don't understand i, I am pleased to be of assistance to you in understanding Manolo's complex Andalucian tongue.

CW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:14:18

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69)

quote:

you don't need arpeggios, either.

...nor picado or tremolo too!

Great rasgueados and an evil and crazily fast and accurate black-nailed thumb with clothes smelling of garlic, tinto and Ducados does the trick every time...

Everything else is optional IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:17:54

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:30:58

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:31:08

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

primitive and boring

But helluva impressive too when done well.

Separates the men from the boys IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:34:51

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:31:06

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:43:16

coreydefresno

Posts: 68
Joined: Nov. 5 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

recent Gerardo Nunez live shows where he accompanies dancers, check YouTube, he is using the thumb, and rasgeo...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 18:47:31

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

I found this site to show chord diagrams from the chord name. I don't know how accurate the output chords are but it's the best I've seen. You throw it a chord name and it spits out the diagrams. It's nice, I typed in Ab phrygian and it showd some chords... are they correct?

Yes, its correct and when you type in the CHORD you are looking for it gives you the fingerings, however it will not give you the different CHORDS of a scale. When you type in Ab phrygian it gives the voicing's for an Ab major Scale.
If you want fingerings all over the neck for a specific CHORD this is an excellent site to find them.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:12:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

recent Gerardo Nunez live shows where he accompanies dancers, check YouTube, he is using the thumb, and rasgeo...

Don't have to Corey,

Saw him live in concert here and that's "exactly" what he was doing.

You can take the boy out of Jerez, but not Jerez out of the boy.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:15:21

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain)

quote:

Yes, its correct and when you type in the CHORD you are looking for it gives you the fingerings, however it will not give you the different CHORDS of a scale. When you type in Ab phrygian it gives the voicing's for an Ab major Scale.
If you want fingerings all over the neck for a specific CHORD this is an excellent site to find them.

Thanks Rain,
so is that Ab phrygian right, I guess not? It did not match any of the 3 chords Jason 'drew' in the Minera tab, close but not the same. And by the way I don't know what Ab phrygian is, I just used it because it was the one spelled out by Jason.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:24:31

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:31:12

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:31:00

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

Injured index finger

Nope, Mike...

This was back in 2005....LONG before he injured his index finger.

So there!

Sure he played his virtuoso stuff as well.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:42:03

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

Theory and anything else is complicated if you don't have an understanding of it. But it is a tool and a very valuable one, in my opinion. if one wants to call himself a musician.

Here's my opinion about the Bm7b5 resolution to Am. I't is not a RESOLUTION, its more of a Passing chord that does not emphasize a tonal change to Am as strongly as the E7.

Here is Bm7b5 spelled out B D F A
Here is E7 spelled out E G# B D
Here is A minor spelled out A C E

Now if you were to play Bm7b5 to Am and listen carefully you do not hear a strong sense of a resolution or get a clear sense of Am being emphasized as you would hear going from E7 to Am. Because G# is foreign to the Cmajor scale of which both Bm7b5 and Am are both in. And that G# just cannot wait to resolve into that A, just like some horny dog.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:42:48

elroby

Posts: 142
Joined: Mar. 25 2007

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2012 4:28:37

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:46:20

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:30:21

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:47:52

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to elroby)

quote:

"Music theorists have an arcane, rarified set of terms and rules that are as obscure as some of the most esoteric domains of mathematics

Music as cold as this might sound is math, a logical mathematical arragement of sound that forms harmony. It is a yin and yang harmony and the need to resolve dissonance that makes music so magical. Understanding music theory is a way to broaden ones color palette, but without the imagination - the human soul, it means nothing.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 19:58:13

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain)

quote:

Understanding music theory is a way to broaden ones color palette,

Could also "narrow" it...

Depending on the person.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 20:03:16

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Could also "narrow" it...

Depending on the person.

I suppose so. In the end it is about the music be produced, and not how it was. There are are modern composers who cannot write a simple pretty melody and yet they possess the strongest knowledge of harmony. And then there are Gypsies who do not have the slightest clue to what key they're in creating incredible sounds. The advantage to someone who is a foreigner to a specific style of music, yet wants to learn and understand it, having a knowledge of rhythm, scales and harmony can be of an advantage.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 20:24:57

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

How about Malagueña? Does that count?
Someone should probably call Juan Habichuela and tell him its not right to go from E7 to A minor.

Petenera must be a bit dodgy as well?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 20:30:14

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Petenera must be a bit dodgy as well?

OH CRAP!!!! now we are doomed.

_____________________________

http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 20:41:43

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rain
Music as cold as this might sound is math, a logical mathematical arragement of sound that forms harmony. It is a yin and yang harmony and the need to resolve dissonance that makes music so magical. Understanding music theory is a way to broaden ones color palette, but without the imagination - the human soul, it means nothing.

We "instrumentalists" often forget that music is much more than notes, or harmony or resolvings. Take rhythm for example, or music that has no pitches or where the pitches are irrelevant (Drum&Base?).

Theory, be it nature science, or musical science, is just a tool to make things intellectually evident. As such the theory is not IDENTICAL with the object. You can use math to understand the theory of music. But music is not math because of that.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 20:48:41

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

How about Malagueña? Does that count?
Someone should probably call Juan Habichuela and tell him its not right to go from E7 to A minor.

This is getting ugly. E7 to A is in every classical composition, as well as blues and jazz, because the V-I is a perfect resolution. Every classical, Jazz, blues rock musician knows this.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2010 21:13:07