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RE: Music theory is way too complicated
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yourwhathurts69
Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
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 RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan)
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hey, regeliocan
it's taking me too long to write out a detailed explanations, so your just gonna have to trust that the system is actually very good and very descriptive - you just need to learn the rules. the only flaw is that there is no one way to write each chord. for example, your Am7b5 (half diminished) can be written as the following: Am7b5, Am7(b5), Ami7b5, Ami7(b5), Amin7b5, Amin7(b5), A-7b5, A-7(b5), Aø7
did I miss any? if you look at them, they all are pretty similar, so it's not too hard to figure out chords as long as you know the rules.
so what are the rules?? in general, assume the 7th is a flat seventh (in the key of C, an interval of C to Bb). after the letter name of the chord, if you see:
M, Maj, or Δ in front of the 7, it makes the 7th a major 7th interval regardless of what type of triad (C E G B).
nothing in front of the 7th, then it is still a flat 7th interval (ie C7 would have a 7th interval of C to Bb, so it is C E G Bb)
m, min, or - in front of the 7th, the triad is minor (ie C Eb G) and the 7th is still a flat 7th interval (so, cm7 has C Eb G Bb)
ø in front of the 7th, or b5 after the 7th, it is based on a diminished triad (C Eb Gb), and the 7th is still a flat 7th interval (so C7b5 has C Eb Gb Bb)
dim or ο in front of the 7th, it is based on a diminished triad (C Eb Gb), and because it is "fully diminished" it also has a diminished 7th interval meaning that you must flat the 7th again (ie Bb goes to Bbb, so Cdim7 is C Eb Gb Bbb)
Bbb sounds like A, but it is important to distinguish Bbb from A because although the pitch sounds the same, the notes are different. as you get more into the theory you'll see why this is important.
also notice that in the fully diminished 7th chord, there is a minor 3rd interval between each note in the chord. (C to Eb, Eb to Gb, Gb to Bbb)
and finally if you see Aug or + in front of the 7th, it is an augmented triad with the flat 7th interval (so, Caug7 is C E G# Bb)
there are a few other 7th chords that i didn't put here, but i think this is enough to process.
oh, and whether or not theory is important, trust me, it is. if you don't believe me, try to find 5 different ways to play the same chord on your guitar. give up?? now try thinking about what notes are in each chord you're trying to play. better? i thought so.
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Date Nov. 15 2010 23:25:44
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rogeliocan
Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69)
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That's great Yourwhathurs69.
What you said is what I thought, and so I ask again and please correct where I am wrong.
on the Am7b5, following your roadmap,
Am7 is A minor with the 7th
b5 is a flat 5th so now we have a triad with a minor 3d and a flat 5th, isn't that a diminished chord: Adim and then again, add the same 7th.
So... why not just right Adim7... from your roadmap, I know the answer (I think), because dim7 means fully diminshed.
So Am7b5 is the same as Adim7 except for the 7th which is a half tone down in the Adim7, in other words, Am7b5 is half-diminished, Adim7 is fully-diminished.
Wow, I think I got it. Thanks for the roadmap.
My final comment is it would simpler if you could just tell what the chord is by looking at the name, without having to know the rules that go with it. But there must be a reason, I don't have enough knowledge to judge.
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Date Nov. 16 2010 0:06:31
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yourwhathurts69
Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Rain)
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hey, rogeliocan
you're almost there
Remember that in general, a flat 7th interval (which is based off of the major key) is used in 7th chords.
so, in your example of Am7, the major key of A has the notes (A B C# D E F# G# A)
and if you "flat" the 7th note, you lower G# a half step to G.
and because your chord has "m" before the 7th, it is based off of a minor triad (A C E).
so Am7 has the minor triad (A C E) and the flat 7th (G) = A C E G
and like you said, although Am7b5 has a diminished triad ( A C Eb), the 7th is only a flat 7 (G) so it is only "half diminished"
to be full dimished, it needs the diminished triad (A C Eb) and "diminished 7th" interval, which flats the "flat 7" (ie G --> Gb)
so Adim7 is A C Eb Gb
and, unlike the half diminished, each note in a fully diminished 7th chord has an interval of a minor third (A to C, C to Eb, Eb to Gb)
if this all makes sense, let me know, and i'll tell you another quick piece of info about diminished chords.
also, the reason there are so many ways to write the same chord is because it's a short hand version of writing the whole chord name. with any short hand way of writing, there are usually a few ways to write it.
so, instead of writing 'A diminished 7th flat 5', you just put 'Am7b5'
it keeps things a little less messy and it's much faster when you're reading chords.
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Date Nov. 16 2010 0:36:20
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Guest
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)
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thinking about this diminshed chords have varying functions
most commonly as a static sound ie diminished or functioning as a dominant b9 chord to a tonic...
as a chord it would have a major seventh
if functioning as a dominant the sequence of notes change
so
diminished = whole step half step
as dominant= half step whole step...
phew
guess theres many takes on the diminished sound
looking at it from a diatonic view using 7ths ie using the locrian mode in major key it is a half diminished chord
from a harmonic minor super locrian it would be a 6th without a 7th...
so at least three takes on the diminished chord
this is getting heady how about back to major/minor chords...
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Date Nov. 16 2010 0:53:05
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yourwhathurts69
Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)
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hey, AlVal
i think you're a bit confused.
in 7th chords, there are no 6th scale degrees - you must build up the chords using 3rd intervals (whether they are major 3rds, minor 3rds, diminished 3rds, or augmented 3rds - either way, 7th chords are always made with 3rd intervals).
however, in diminished scales, there is always a weird note that you must use the enharmonic spelling to make the scale work. so, when you're thinking the 6th, it is actually the 7th note flatted twice.
so, in an A diminished scale, you have the notes (A) B (C) D (Eb) F (Gb) Ab A
notice the whole step half step relation between each note (WHWHWHWH)
also notice that some of those notes could have different note names but still sound the same. for example, you could also write this: (A) B (C) D (Eb) F (Gb) G# A
either way, you still have the diminished triad which is build off of minor thirds: A to C, C to Eb, Eb to Gb
the interval between each note must be a minor third. yes, i understand the Gb may "sound" the same as F#, but in music theory, it is not the same "note"
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Date Nov. 16 2010 1:01:42
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yourwhathurts69
Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)
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hey, Alval
the F# your thinking of is actually a Gb. although the two notes "sound" the same, they are different notes. and when it comes to theory, there is an important distinction between notes and sounds.
in the key of A major, any type of G is considered a 7th. the important part is to determine what kind of seventh. in A major, the notes are: A B C# D E F# G# A
using a numbers formula, we have:
maj7 = 1357, so Amaj7 is A C# E G#
7 = 135b7, so A7 is A C# E G (because the 7th is "flatted" from G# to G natural)
min7= 1b35b7, so Amin7 is A C E G (C# goes to C, and G# goes to G)
min7b5= 1b3b5b7, so Amin7b5 is A C Eb G (C# to C, E to Eb, G# to G)
dim7= 1b3b5bb7, so Adim7 is A C Eb Gb (C# to C, E to Eb, and G# to G to Gb)
notice that the chords are always made with 1,3,5,and 7 in some form or another.
so in the dim7 chord, you must have Gb and NOT F# because Gb is still based on the 7th scale degree. because it is flatted twice, it is now a diminished 7th interval instead of a minor 7th interval.
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Date Nov. 16 2010 1:44:00
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Guest
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to yourwhathurts69)
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thanks
two views of the same thing i guess...
A dim scale A B C D D#[Eb] F F# [Gb] G#[Ab] A
F# dim Scale F# [Gb] G# [Ab] A B C D D# [Eb] F F# [Gb]
Same notes yes?
understand your point as your relating it to one diatonic scale Amajor
still if you diminished all the chordal intervals of the A major ie 3rd 5th and 7th you can still get four diminished chords A C D# [Eb] and F# [Gb] diminished...same notes yes?
Same applies to F# major as you pinted out so i.m not getting the bit where this is wrong or confusing...to me we are saying much the same thing
they ARE inversions of each other how they function is what really matters.
If F# or Gb is a diminished dominant seventh what shall we call the G#?
your example gives us the same notes regardless of key all a minor 3rd apart
guess your taking a classical view of things and i'm taking more the American Jazz system...
Apologies for any confusion..just often see a Adim7 notated/voiced as A F# [Gb] C F and G#..
Way cool chord but relates more to diminished Harmony than Diatonic and probably beyond the scope of this thread and the original question...yep guess i'm making it more complicated...oops
Cheers and thanks for the insight 
Will remove my previous posts for future readers of this thread... 
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Date Nov. 16 2010 3:05:46
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