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RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Grisha) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Well, maybe early "Transfigured Night" Schoenberg is fine. But how are you going to accompany traditional cante with atonal style? Or 12-tone?

No, I wasn't aware of that particular event. However, I know a number of composers who got influenced by flamenco; some of them are Russians.



I'm funnin' you grisha.Transfigured Night por Solea.Urt ur urp tweet groan.Ayeee

One of Schoenberg's tenet was that you should be able to turn the music upside down and it should work.W/ his music i think it's true.

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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 18:27:07
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 18:31:02
 
Grisha

 

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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Ogilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Well, maybe early "Transfigured Night" Schoenberg is fine. But how are you going to accompany traditional cante with atonal style? Or 12-tone?

No, I wasn't aware of that particular event. However, I know a number of composers who got influenced by flamenco; some of them are Russians.



I'm funnin' you grisha.Transfigured Night por Solea.Urt ur urp tweet groan.Ayeee

One of Schoenberg's tenet was that you should be able to turn the music upside down and it should work.W/ his music i think it's true.


I know, I wasn't serious either. I expressed my opinion, I respect yours, and now I am off to practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 18:34:26
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
quote:

Cante not important? Cante is the heart of flamenco. No cante, no guitar.


? I think you got something very wrong here.

1st. Im talking about normal peoples taste. Not flamenco fanboys like us. About Pacos fame in the world and not within ...flamenco fanboys..like us. Ok?

2nd. Thats nice that you think so. But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.


P.S. No guitar = martinete... aww...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 19:01:01
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.

..you don't know that for sure...maybe moses wasnt that into flamenco so he forgot to mentioned it to the others.


anyway back OT, another thing I dislike about old cante is that the sound quality is so bad. Really all the hiss and rustle annoys me, definitely when its played loud.
does anyway know some new records with but with old cante? Al the records I found were in really poor quality.


(btw this martinete from duquende I really, really like:
*cant find it on youtube, its titled "en calor de la fragua"
it has no guitar but really great compas)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 19:08:08
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
To get out of the laserpoints of the guns of some cante lovers.

I also like cante flamenco. No all. Some singers. But I stay cool about rumors and definitions that are... only true for some people. I dont just jump on trains,.. I have my own opinion, that stays flexible.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 19:13:00
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 19:17:14
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
So your master said... blablablublalalalbalabala.... ... fine.

I like you mike, but I have the impression that you are a little bit too deep inside this stuff. It almost sounds like a religion from your mouth.

And as I wrote in another thread. I dont argue about religion. That means, I wont go on writing in this thread because religion is dangerous.

Have fun, Im out.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 19:19:34
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to yohan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: yohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.

..you don't know that for sure...maybe moses wasnt that into flamenco so he forgot to mentioned it to the others.


anyway back OT, another thing I dislike about old cante is that the sound quality is so bad. Really all the hiss and rustle annoys me, definitely when its played loud.
does anyway know some new records with but with old cante? Al the records I found were in really poor quality.


(btw this martinete from duquende I really, really like:
*cant find it on youtube, its titled "en calor de la fragua"
it has no guitar but really great compas)


There is a ton of stuff that doesn't sound the way you describe.
Anything by Terremoto de jerez The greatest singer of the 20th century is a good singer to try.
The entire "Chant du Monde series" (Maybe 20 CDs)which contains the Fantastic recording of Perla de Cadiz>
Then there is a recent 2005 release of Tomas Pavon which contain the only 28 recordings he ever made.
The saetas sound as though the were recorded yesterday.

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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 21:56:28
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Ogilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: yohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.

..you don't know that for sure...maybe moses wasnt that into flamenco so he forgot to mentioned it to the others.


anyway back OT, another thing I dislike about old cante is that the sound quality is so bad. Really all the hiss and rustle annoys me, definitely when its played loud.
does anyway know some new records with but with old cante? Al the records I found were in really poor quality.


Heres a youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=Terremoto+de+jerez&uni=1

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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 21:59:48
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 22:07:25
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
Richard, you speak coded and make me intrigued. What is flatting the voice in the style of Extremudera tangos? Any youtube examples? Why can't the guitar do that?
[/quote]

Here's an example that the flatting doesn't work


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Richard Ogilby
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 22:48:48
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
Richard, you've been here for 5 days and you've made 47 posts. I'm impressed, at this rate you'll make fellow before me. I also like your jokes, which I get the references to. So keep it up Geronimo.

You young knuckle heads should listen to Richard because he knows his cante an has good taste.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2010 23:09:20
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Richard, you've been here for 5 days and you've made 47 posts. I'm impressed, at this rate you'll make fellow before me. I also like your jokes, which I get the references to. So keep it up Geronimo.

You young knuckle heads should listen to Richard because he knows his cante an has good taste.


Thanks
You know of course that Picasso signed Manitas de Plata's guitar and was a fan...but yes he would have played a blanca.
Picasso was given a special dinner in his honor which they served Paella.They asked him how he liked it and he replied it was only missing one thing.........
a cook.
Geronimo... i also make Santa fe (santo Domingo tribe)inspired Turquoise jewelry.

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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 0:23:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 2:27:49
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

I was only trying to tease you. Otherwise we share same ideas about cante.


lol...you bastard! that worked well. I was completely confused. Like talking to a wall. omg!haha I thought for a moment you were such a fanatic with tunnel vision, too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 8:20:50
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
I apologize for restoring the original topic, but I must refer to this wonderful performance to which Anders directed me about a year ago, when I submitted my own share of reluctance to Cante.

Isn’t it indeed the Voice-Guitar’s pinnacle and heavenly a marriage of the two.

[now, one year later] I could not agree more with Grisha, as to the importance of understanding and enjoying flamenco ”songs” to appreciate Falmenco guitar. I suddenly feel a sense of emptiness in a guitar solo, as longing for the voice which originally asked the guitar to play.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 12:43:00
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Here's an example that the flatting doesn't work



[There are lots of players here who have good taste. Some are more diplomatic and more informative. So far mr. Ogilby has not posted anything enlightening. Perhaps I haven't either but I do post a falseta or vid on occasion.


Some remarks are made in jest and must be taken as jest. i assume english is your second language.
You don't hear the pitch problem w/ Chiqui ?

What do i teach you.I thought this was a foro not free lessons>It's nice if someone puts up a free lesson.
So as a gesture of good will here is my favorite PDL video.


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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 14:42:58
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 15:11:46
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
You don't hear the pitch problem w/ Chiqui ?
[/quote]

Yes and Yes.

Big pitch problem. The argument, your argument, arose out of the idea that cante and guitar have not influenced each other. Many chromatic notes, I would say, have been influenced by the guitar and its passing harmonies. It is a different argument to say someone sings with poor pitch than to say that the guitar has not influenced the cante, and give the flat note as an example.

[So you misunderstood what I was trying to say.However you understood what i was saying or trying to say as evidenced by the rest of your post.
Chiqui has great rhythm and they are all having fun but when she tries to flat/bend the tone she goes off pitch.If she were an Opera singer she'd be Florence Foster jenkins


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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 15:26:12
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 15:42:17
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
[Sorry if I have been too sensitive.
The vid was funny as hell.
[/quote]

Did you listen to the PDLvideo?

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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 15:48:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 15:50:44
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

I have heard it before. Always makes me laugh.

That is what happens when you mix flamenco and Schoenberg.


Shoenberg's late works.I undestand Paco thought it was funny.
Ygngie malsteen has one done by the same fellow and he got all mad and made you tube take it down.Of course it was up again in 5 minutes.

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Richard Ogilby
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 15:56:42
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
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RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
Whatever..just decided to shut up with jokes and participate! ;.)

I like that! Same time same singer, different guitarist.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 16:34:19
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2010 17:34:30
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
Ogilby, you missed one detail.

Transfigured Night was composed before Schoenberg used dodecaphonic composition. Verklarte Nacht is more like late Wager, or Brahms on acid. It does not work upside down. What Schoenberg actually meant was that one strategy for using the 12 tone row is to make it works as a palindrome, the row is mirrored. It can be used forwards and then flipped and used tail first.

Schoenberg was first a Wagnerian in harmony and the chromatic emphasis in Wagner influenced him to embrace the 12 tone system. So in terms of how Schoenberg can realistically relate to flamenco cante is through Wagners use of chromatic passing notes, like those found in Flamenco.

Even thought there is no reason to relate Schoenberg to flamenco, if you want to use an example of a 12 tone composition something later like the violin concerto from 1933 would work.

:)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2010 21:34:20
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ogilby, you missed one detail.

Transfigured Night was composed before Schoenberg used dodecaphonic composition. Verklarte Nacht is more like late Wager, or Brahms on acid. It does not work upside down. What Schoenberg actually meant was that one strategy for using the 12 tone row is to make it works as a palindrome, the row is mirrored. It can be used forwards and then flipped and used tail first.

Schoenberg was first a Wagnerian in harmony and the chromatic emphasis in Wagner influenced him to embrace the 12 tone system. So in terms of how Schoenberg can realistically relate to flamenco cante is through Wagners use of chromatic passing notes, like those found in Flamenco.

Even thought there is no reason to relate Schoenberg to flamenco, if you want to use an example of a 12 tone composition something later like the violin concerto from 1933 would work.

:)


At last some one w/ a sense of humor.

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Richard Ogilby
www.gitana-blanca.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2010 0:48:48
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Ogilby) 
Don't worry dude, I got your back on the jokes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2010 1:54:10
 
Richard Ogilby

 

Posts: 76
Joined: Nov. 1 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Don't worry dude, I got your back on the jokes.


Flamenco sin cachondeo no hay Flamenco

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Richard Ogilby
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2010 2:15:51
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