Inside the box materials

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Inside the box materials

We're all faced with deciding what materials to use for tentalones, linings, side reinforcements, etc. Just curious if anybody has any ideas as to the different strengths and weakness of different woods in different types of guitars, or any concrete reason for using one over the other in a give situation.
Mahogany? Spanish cedar? Spruce? Red cedar? Basswood??
There are a lot of choices and it's hard to tell what difference any of them would have on the sound or stability of the guitar, although there are slight weight differences.

I'm interested in what you would use especially for top and back linings for blancas, negras and also classicals and why.

Thanks in advance.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 20:50:41

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Lining material

Tentelones: Honduran Cedar
Back Lining: I f I have cypress I use it. Bends ok, easy to work, stable and not to heavy. If I had acces to basswood, I would use that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 7:47:54

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

for Tentellones - spruce
back linings - Spanish Cedar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 14:52:28

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I like spruce for my peones and I use mahogany sapele and utile for my linings

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 17:28:55

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I think pretty much anything, any wood available could be used. Spruce, rosewood, mahogany and spanish/Honduran cedar, or Spanish cedar happen to be on hand, so why not use them? I've seen several older Spanish flamenco guitars with Euro beech for solid back linings. Now, euro beech seems like a very generic choice, as I've seen it used on everything from furniture to knife handles, to hand plane bodies. One of such guitars with beech back linings was made by Esteso. Did he choose beech for tonal/acoustic reasons?

Deteresa1, from my personal point of view, the types of linings, such as solid, thick, thin or laminated/extra thick, etc. make a greater impact on the acoustic properties of the box than the exact species of woods used.

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 19:41:23

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

quote:

Deteresa1, from my personal point of view, the types of linings, such as solid, thick, thin or laminated/extra thick, etc. make a greater impact on the acoustic properties of the box than the exact species of woods used.

That's definitely true. I guess I will just go with what colors look nice together then

Thanks everyone for the replies btw.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 0:34:05

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

quote:

the types of linings, such as solid, thick, thin or laminated/extra thick, etc. make a greater impact on the acoustic properties of the box than the exact species of woods used.

Can you give an example of what you mean, Peter?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 7:25:19

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to krichards)

Here is an example of what I mean. Let's say you used tentalones made of spruce, or ones made of Spanish Cedar (both sets are same dimensions). Second scenario, you laminated wider, solid spruce linings for sides/soundboard attachment. Spruce tentalones, to wide spruce solid linings, is a bigger change, IMO, than spruce tentalones to identically sized Sp. cedar tentalones. Speaking of laminated linings, used those on a recent guitar:

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 17:40:14

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I like spruce for my peones and I use mahogany sapele and utile for my linings

Which brings up another question. I've seen tentellones spelled several different ways and can't find it in the Spanish dictionary. I think I'll switch to the term peones like Stephen, at least I know what that means.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 20:05:57

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to jshelton5040)

would glue blocks be a fair English language substitute for "peones"? Peones is not a clearly defined term either. I looked it up here:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peones

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 20:18:16

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I would never line my guitars with unskilled laborers or farm workers. That's just brutal. I'm stickin with tentalones

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 20:48:33

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Here's my latest build (classical):

Spanish cedar reverse kerfed linings, spruce side braces, mahogany tail block, and spruce farm workers.

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Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 20:52:53

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Have any of you guys checked out Kevin Ryan's A4 kerfing? I'm not sure if it would be usable for flamenco guitars:

http://www.ryanguitars.com/theguitars/RIB/Kerfing.htm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 21:26:25

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to ralexander)

quote:

I'm not sure if it would be usable for flamenco guitars:

It would be usable, but why??? Well, might be nice with a cutaway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 23:08:44

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Peter, how did you make the laminated linings and what was your experience with them?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 23:12:25

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

I would never line my guitars with unskilled laborers or farm workers. That's just brutal. I'm stickin with tentalones

Well, peones can also refer to foot soldiers or pawns (as in chess). I know you're joking by the way. I notice you're using another spelling for tent-alones.

Have you used the relieved tone bars on other guitars? What do you think is the advantage?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2010 23:15:52

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Have you used the relieved tone bars on other guitars? What do you think is the advantage?

My luthier friend and I use this design on all our classicals.. for lack of a better word it gives a very "open" surround-sound kind of effect. It allows us to make the top thicker and get a very beautiful, complex sound on the trebles without sacrificing anything in the bass. In fact we keep making the tops slightly stiffer and the guitars keep getting better.. very responsive especially with a light bridge. The top in this picture (stiff Euro spruce) is 2.6 mm, with a 6.5 mm center brace..

Credit to Jeffrey Elliott on this design of course.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 0:17:01

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

quote:

Speaking of laminated linings, used those on a recent guitar:

Thanks for the reply, but I'm struggling to see what advantage a laminated lining could have over a normal solid lining

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 7:36:13

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I only use laminated linings. I use 1.5mm vaneers to create them and dont bend them before hand. I Glue them and bend them round a form. They come out nice and stiff and fit my shape perfectly. I also set my back bars into the lining. I think the lamination makes it easier to cut the recesses.

The over all process time for a set takes about 45 minutes although it speeds up if you cut a few at the same time.

The benefits are: I dont have to buy kerfed linings and break lots of them! I think they add Stiffness without adding too much wieght. I find gluing the binding to be less messy on the inside of the guitar!

I Glue mine in a similar way to peters method but I use an old car seatbelt that pulls together underneath.

The word tentalones is strange to me as I have only ever known them as peones. Pawns as they were described to me. Another spanish word that I use in construction that Im sure not many others use is Zoque! pronounced Thockey It means the heel block

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 8:34:23

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

It would be usable, but why??? Well, might be nice with a cutaway.

I dunno, I'm just a guitar player

I know a little bit about steel string construction and much less about flamencos. I know a lot of SS builders are excited about it because it's easy to work with and looks great. And yes, It would seem to have the most benefit when used on a cutaway.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2010 13:24:33

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

I am currently following the Barbero plan (Bruné and the English one

). It seems that (cedar) tentellones are used for the top but that they are abutted right next to each other. I'm wondering if this could have been a student mistake that was copied all around the top for consistency, or as a choice. If so, I wonder how much this would differ from a continuous binding (which seems to have a lot of favour)?
Mr. Tsiorba says it's the type of contact between surfaces that counts. What sort of surface is a continuous but separated series of tentellones? An experiment?

I also have bought some spruce lining blanks to be kerfed for the job but the grain is at 90º to what I thought was correct. Is THIS critical too? At a guess it would hold the top more firmly as the grain is at 90º to the vertical direction of vibration of the top but it's quite opposite to what I was recommended by a classical builder many years ago.. maybe he was thinking about aesthetics, it does look lovely to follow the grain around the join.

So my question, is all this just dancing on a pinhead? I suspect all the refinement will be lost in the 'noise' of all the other snafus in the build, but I respect experience and wonder at the justification.

Beginners corner: Re volume of a guitar...and other esoterics...read Cumpiano here...http://dolcecano.blogspot.co.uk/2011_02_01_archive.html#8613702555826891350

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 21:35:30

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

I also have bought some spruce lining blanks to be kerfed for the job but the grain is at 90º to what I thought was correct. Is THIS critical too? At a guess it would hold the top more firmly as the grain is at 90º to the vertical direction of vibration of the top but it's quite opposite to what I was recommended by a classical builder many years ago.. maybe he was thinking about aesthetics, it does look lovely to follow the grain around the join.

So my question, is all this just dancing on a pinhead? I suspect all the refinement will be lost in the 'noise' of all the other snafus in the build, but I respect experience and wonder at the justification.

We only use tentallones (peones) of vertical grain perpendicular to the grain of the sides and our solid back linings are parallel with the grain of the sides. The reason for using tentallones (peones) is that you don't have to force the top when gluing it to the sides and neck. The tentallones will bridge any gaps that occur but it is a very time consuming operation. We always leave a little space between the tentallones to reduce the risk of any sympathetic buzzing. These are considerations based on logical assumptions rather than any empirical evidence.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 23:39:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I build like John. Its the standard way of building Spanish guitars. Most of the socalled masters built like that.
The Spanish guitar is called a lowpowered stringed instrument with relatively low string tension. Try to get the box as balanced and stress free as possible.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 7:36:48

El Burdo

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Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks, men.

So, peones are used to affix the top without stress; that's a good explanation and the sympathetic vibration thing makes sense too.

quote:

We only use tentallones (peones) of vertical grain perpendicular to the grain of the sides

Here lies the problem for the beginner I guess. The top according to Cumpiano must be free to respond but controlled. So, a good boundary between top and sides is important. The top is the sound source and more significant than the sides (as Torres demonstrated with his cardboard guitar, did he not?). (I do take Anders' point about it being an integrated box too).

So, if the grain of the peones is perpendicular to that of the sides, it's parallel to that of the top. I assume that this method reduces transmission of top vibration to the sides, at this change of grain.
But, if the grain in the peones is parallel to that of the sides, and perpendicular to the top I would have thought that the top was more directly isolated, and less 'coupled' to the sides?

Problem is, all this guesswork costs a lot of wood!

Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 20:26:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

So, if the grain of the peones is perpendicular to that of the sides, it's parallel to that of the top. I assume that this method reduces transmission of top vibration to the sides, at this change of grain.
But, if the grain in the peones is parallel to that of the sides, and perpendicular to the top I would have thought that the top was more directly isolated, and less 'coupled' to the sides?

The grain of the peones is not parallel with the top grain, it is perpendicular as well. Think of a piece of quartered spruce set perpendicular to the side grain, it will also be perpendicular to the top wood grain except at the neck and end block. I'm not concerned about coupling since I suspect the only way to avoid it would be to use some kind of damping material between the top and sides. I just like the way this looks and it feels right. I even cut an ogee shape into the peones because I think it looks nice. Kind of stupid I suppose since the only way you can see it on the finished guitar is with a mirror.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 20:57:17

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hi John

I think I see what you mean. Your peones have the grain vertically on the front face going down into the peone itself? Then it can be parallel and perpendicular depending on where in the curve it is.

I don't want to get too obsessive about it, but just for clarification - this is my thinking (below)...

Which of these orientations would you say is preferable? (I don't have the cut to do what I think is your method.)

Thanks again.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 22:32:13

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to El Burdo)

You're correct the third drawing is the way we do it except our peones have an ogee shape with a 2 degree angle on the top instead of that ugly wedge

.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 23:11:33

El Burdo

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Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to jshelton5040)

I was approximating...

Are we saying either one of my versions is OK(-enough)?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 23:15:40

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo
Are we saying either one of my versions is OK(-enough)?

I don't understand the either/or versions. The way we do it is the like the bottom drawing. I haven't the least notion of what is the best method, all I'm conveying is the way we do it. I can say that I am very pleased with the way our latest guitars are sounding.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 0:33:16

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Inside the box materials (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

You do it the middle way with the grain parallel to the top because the fit to the top is crucial and it is easier to sand or chisel them with that grain orientation.

Also because the old way of making the dental work was to slice off piece of a dimensioned stick and then drive a chisel through it on the flat side on a diagonal. Then you end up with two glue blocks. Need a picture? You should end up with something that looks like none of your pictures, actually.

If you look at Brune's plan he shows grain I think.

You can also think about it in terms of what is the best carpentry... do you want to attach you top to end grain or flat grain? I vote for flat grain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 2:40:25