question on grain count and run out

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rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

question on grain count and run out

Is there a difference of opinions between luthiers on presence of run out on the sound board and the grain count on the sound board.

That is, a good quality guitar would have no run out and would have tight straight grain.
Or, are these qualities not important. I am talking from a sound and long term structural integrity only not visual appearance.

Thanks for your opinions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2010 22:14:42

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

Is there a difference of opinions between luthiers on presence of run out on the sound board and the grain count on the sound board.

That is, a good quality guitar would have no run out and would have tight straight grain.
Or, are these qualities not important. I am talking from a sound and long term structural integrity only not visual appearance.

Thanks for your opinions.

Here's my vote...grain count and straightness is irrelevent. Runout should be kept to a minimum.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2010 22:54:32

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

There is a difference of opinion between luthiers on just about everything. But I don't think anyone will tell you that a lot of runout is a great thing, although obviously great guitars have been made with some runout in the top.
Beyond that, selecting top wood is all about what sound you're going for. I think you can make a good guitar out of almost any reasonable piece of spruce, but they will all sound slightly different depending on a lot of factors, grain spacing being very low on that list (IMO). For me, selecting top wood is about 40% tactile, 40% listening (tapping) and 20% visual. The taste and smell don't usually influence my decision

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2010 22:58:55

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

Runout--I prefer as little as possible.

Grain count? I don't really care, other characteristics such as stiffness and mass are way more critical for me.

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Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2010 23:11:39

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

Thanks for your answers, you do all agree, and it makes sense to me. I would have thought that grain count affect the stiffness, kind of like a drum skin; tighter grain more stiffness, and the opposite.

On run out, can you see it before you put the finish on, I mean, can you spot it looking at the wood prior to building the guitar? Because I don't understand why top or hand main guitars would end up with major run out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2010 23:21:58

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

On run out, can you see it before you put the finish on, I mean, can you spot it looking at the wood prior to building the guitar?

It is possible, although when the wood is still in the rough, it takes some time to learn how to discern runout. At least it took me a while to figure out what exactly to look for. It is a lot easier to spot the runout when you begin to plane the wood with a handplane.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 0:09:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

Here's my vote...grain count and straightness is irrelevent. Runout should be kept to a minimum.

I agree and will only add that a slight runout is not important. In real world, 99% of the soundboards will have some degree of runout and a slight one (the one that doesnt matter)can only be seen when the soundboard has been joined and planed/sanded

On a rough cut piece of spruce, you can see run out if the pieces are very rough. It looks like the grains "are sticking out"
The will go in different direction on the two bookmached pieces. In Spanish its called to be "hairy"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 8:11:54

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan
On run out, can you see it before you put the finish on, I mean, can you spot it looking at the wood prior to building the guitar? Because I don't understand why top or hand main guitars would end up with major run out.

Runout is caused by a tree twisting as is grows. If you split your tops out of a billet or round you can see runout instantly since the split surface will not be flat. You must flatten the split surface so it can be sawn so even though the tops from a twisted billet are sawn flat and uniform they will all have varying degrees of runout. The top will always try to go back to the twisted shape so an easy test for runout is to lay a panel on a flat surface for a while. Eventually two diagonal corners will rise and the others will fall. Almost all spruce tops sold by vendors have some degree of runout since spruce likes to grow with a twist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 14:52:24

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

It looks like the grains "are sticking out"

I've seen this often in planks that came back from the mill when building my father's cottage. I think I understand Peter's comment that you would also notice when you begin to plane, I suppose the resulting 'chips' would be very short, like cutting the top of grass instead of long strands.

quote:

If you split your tops out of a billet or round you can see runout instantly since the split surface will not be flat.

And thanks for this, you see this all the time splitting logs, I can understand the loss in strength as the grain is pretty much going through the top now instead of its length.

I read a bit more on grain count and I see that my analogy to the drum was not correct and tight grain does not equate to stiffness, as well as straightness of grain as was mentioned.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 15:12:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

I suppose the resulting 'chips' would be very short, like cutting the top of grass instead of long strands.

Nope, you can make long shaves if you go with the grains sticking out, whereas you´ll have problems with going against the grain

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 15:28:28

Markus3

Posts: 34
Joined: Oct. 13 2010

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

From what I have heard this is very important in a good sounding guitar. check out this video By the way is Manuel Rodriguez production guitars any good?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

Is there a difference of opinions between luthiers on presence of run out on the sound board and the grain count on the sound board.

That is, a good quality guitar would have no run out and would have tight straight grain.
Or, are these qualities not important. I am talking from a sound and long term structural integrity only not visual appearance.

Thanks for your opinions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 18:26:43

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

Hi

What this guy talks in the youtube video is not all correct, for instance that tight grain means higher stiffness. I have had spruce tops in may hands with very tight grain and the wood was floppy like chewing gum. On the other hand i have seen spruce top with annual ring distance of about 3mm and the stuff was stiff like nothing, so that's all ****. O.k. i must admit i wouldn't build with the 3mm spruce either, but that's more due to visual reasons rather something else. The german spruce that he mentioned purchased from Mittenwald is most likely not from Mittenwald. Most tonewood suppliers from Mittenwald sell spruce of other origin, mainly caucasian spruce.

I've seen expencive spruce tops from spanish and french suppliers both with tight grain and none of them had good physical and tonal properties. There is a lot of hype and misinformation about that. When you study the old masters then you will find out that the spruce they used was mostly of medium grain width and not always with straigt grain. I am convinced that you must hear and feel the quality of the wood. That's far more important than just looking at it's vusual appearance. That doesn't mean that visual appearance is not important but that comes in the second place.

So what is important when purchasing spruce?

When i buy spruce i look for the following:

1. perfect radial cut (90 degree standig annual rings)
2. No runout (soundboard cut out of splitted billets)
3. medium spacing annual rings about 1 to 1.5mm
4. Intensively marked late growth rings
5. light weight (one half of the soundboard usually wights less than 200 gramms)
6. high stiffness when flexing the soundboard in the lateral direction
7. high pitch response when knoking the soundboard
8. overall visual appearance

I don't care too much about straigt grain

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 19:10:10

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Markus3)

quote:

From what I have heard this is very important in a good sounding guitar. check out this video

Hmm... do you think there's any chance that he is just trying to sell his guitars?

I have also heard from a very wise Professor that if the guitar is covered in a sheet of plastic it will have very sweet and sonorous timbric colors, especially if you are high on crystal meth. Oh wait that was before your time, nevermind...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 19:14:04

Markus3

Posts: 34
Joined: Oct. 13 2010

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Armando)

I am not surprised that it was probably just a hype, the guy seems to be a business man so i took that in mind. Does anyone know if Manuel Rodriguez guitars are any good though? I read many reviews saying that some of his sabicas flamenco models are better than some of the 5 to 6 thousand dollar flamencos, any opinions?

From your opinion armando what is the top of the line spruce and as you mentioned earlier that the old masters used medium grade but what kind in particular?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 19:20:10

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

will have very sweet and sonorous timbric colors, especially if you are high on crystal meth.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 19:33:18

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Markus3)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Markus3

I am not surprised that it was probably just a hype, the guy seems to be a business man so i took that in mind. Does anyone know if Manuel Rodriguez guitars are any good though? I read many reviews saying that some of his sabicas flamenco models are better than some of the 5 to 6 thousand dollar flamencos, any opinions?

From your opinion armando what is the top of the line spruce and as you mentioned earlier that the old masters used medium grade but what kind in particular?

By all means take the advice of a peddler over luthiers with years of experience. Someone needs to remind this moron that there are many fantastic flamenco guitars with cedar tops.

The best spruce by the way is the one that exhibits the optimal characteristics for producing a good guitar. Doesn't make any difference where it grows.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2010 23:56:08

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

It can also be to the makers discretion! Some spruce tops can be far too stiff and heavy to make a decent guitar with. I think most classical guitar makers wont use sitka spruce. But the Steel string builders lover it.

armando - I dont think mittenwald would get away with selling caucasian spruce as german spruce. They are very different in colour for instance. german is yellowy white. Caucasian is pinky and contains more freckles! I am comparing my caucasian to my german spruce.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2010 10:56:23

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

SEden

I have asked them where the spruce comes from and they told me that they buy it elsewhere as there is not enough domestic spruce around for the quantity they need.

In fact there are some people around who sell real german spruce, but you have to search them.

The spruce that Madinter sells as German spruce is exactly of such yellowish colour as you mention but that spruce is very floppy. I find this stuff to be horrible. I would never build with it.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2010 12:12:24

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I think most classical guitar makers wont use sitka spruce. But the Steel string builders lover it.

I agree with you Stephen but there are/were some major builders like John Gilbert who use Sitka extensively.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2010 15:17:17

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

I'm not supprised that peaple are using it. Isn't engleman spruce the choice wood for most American Builers? I would use caucasian spruce but I fear it may be frowned upon making the guitar look odd. I have one set of it maybe I can fit one in next year.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2010 16:14:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I'm not supprised that peaple are using it. Isn't engleman spruce the choice wood for most American Builers? I would use caucasian spruce but I fear it may be frowned upon making the guitar look odd. I have one set of it maybe I can fit one in next year.

Engelmann is highly prized here and I have used it with success on classics but I don't favor it for flamenco guitars. It is at least as prone to twisting as Euro spruce so Engelmann without runout is rare.

I think you should give the Caucasian another try. I bought 25 sets in the last couple of years. A few of the sets do tend toward a pink tone but most are just as white and clear of streaks as any Euro spruce I have used. I don't mind the pink tone since I can simply give those guitars an orange finish.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2010 18:16:34

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

Lol Markus, I dont think John was calling you a moron, he was calling the Rodriguez Sales person a moron for saying flamencos have to be made from spruce. I would edit your post and appologise.

In reply to question if the guitars are any good. They are the same as any factory guitars. Maybe 1 in 100 are good the rest are box's with strings on. I used to own a cheaper cedar top. not my thing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 8:05:11

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Markus seems to have misunderstood. I have deleted his post. He can still apologise.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 11:53:08

Markus3

Posts: 34
Joined: Oct. 13 2010

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 18 2010 20:29:37

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 20:26:33

Markus3

Posts: 34
Joined: Oct. 13 2010

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Escribano)

This guy (JShelton) never has anything good to say, and not just on this post but many others as well. He needs to relax and learn how to give a proper constructive critique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 20:31:21

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Markus3)

quote:

He needs to relax

So do you amigo.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 20:35:06

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

john has been very helpful towards me in the past. i'm always looking forward to his posts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 20:37:13

Markus3

Posts: 34
Joined: Oct. 13 2010

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 19 2010 9:37:49
Reason for deletion: Unhelpful

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2010 22:33:17

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to rogeliocan)

you must have skimmed through the dialogue that we were having where John was sharing his knowledge. Perhaps not useful for yourself but very interesting for us other guitar makers

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 10:56:08

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: question on grain count and run out (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

you must have skimmed through the dialogue that we were having where John was sharing his knowledge. Perhaps not useful for yourself but very interesting for us other guitar makers

Why thank you Stephen, what a nice thing to say to old sour tempered reprobate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2010 17:45:25