Planing the glue joint a hassle

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Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

Planing the glue joint a hassle

Hi

Since i'm building guitars there are some tasks in the guitarmaking process i find to be difficult or even worse, a hassle.

One of this worst tasks is planing the joint for to two halves of the top. Today i have planed two hours and the joint is still not precise enough. I hace tried different planes including some expencive japanese planes but even then, i'm in troubles all the time.

Maybe some of the luthiers here have some useful advice on how to sucessfully plane the two halves.

Thanks

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 16:32:43

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

check The soles of your planes! perhaps they are not straight? It usually only takes me 5 minutes of actual planing so There must be something going wrong for you. I also usually try and take off as little as possible when I am joining as well. This helps make fine adjustments easier. Hope this helps.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 20:40:37

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

I used to have trouble with this too. I ended up saying to hell with the traditional method and got one of these. I now join in a matter of minutes.

http://www.luthiersuppliers.com/products/p11.html

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 23:23:34

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Maybe some of the luthiers here have some useful advice on how to sucessfully plane the two halves.

You could always buy a good jointer and have the beds and fence milled flat. I've never regretted spending the money for this wonderful tool. I consider it an essential for a woodworking shop.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 23:35:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Its difficult to advice you, because you do not say how your jointing setup is. A photo would be a goo idea.

I use a very simple setup over a completely flat table. I use a Stanley number 5 and I oil the side of the plane that goes towards the table in order to have less friction. Plane VERY thin. Listen to the plane is more important than looking at it.
The trick is to know how much pressure to put in the middle section of plates.
Is your result Convex or concave?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 10:46:42

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks for all your tips and tricks.

quote:

Its difficult to advice you, because you do not say how your jointing setup is. A photo would be a goo idea.

Anders

What i use is a common shootingboard. I have first tried with an old stanley jointers plane and that ended up in a mess. The joint came out like a snake, so i changed to a japanese kanna.

http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/G310802.htm

As this didn't resolved the problem i purchased a naga dai kanna.

http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/G310470.htm

Unfortunately the knife setup is not done by the factory so i had to do this without having the necessary experience. Maybe the spacing for the knife is now too big and that's the reason for the unprecise cut.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 15:35:20

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Try finishing with a good straight sanding block.
Or if you have a table saw you can clamp a strip of sandpaper under the fence and sand the two halves together against the fence.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 17:48:34

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Maybe some of the luthiers here have some useful advice on how to sucessfully plane the two halves.

Ok, since you won't follow my advice on the jointer

. Here's an old woodworker's trick that you may not know.

Lay the two panels on a piece of scrap plywood just like you're going to join them and clamp them securely. Measure from the center of your router bit (you do have a rounter don't you?) to the edge of the base and clamp a straight piece of wood (it doesn't even have to be straight but it looks better) that distance from the center line. Run the router along the straight edge cutting all the way through the panels. Use a new, sharp router bit and remember you'll lose half the router bit width off each panel. I use this method when working with big pieces of plastic laminate that I want to fit together perfectly.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 18:26:32

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

I use an ordinary bench plane and a shooting board.
Then finish with sandpaper glued to a spirit level. The spirit level is about 60 cm long and I just slide it along the bench in the same way as the plane.

Its simple and it works.

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 7:37:21

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

I do it the same way as krichards.
and then I glue it using the tape method and hot hide glue
I often have trouble finding the joint afterwards

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 9:20:30

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

For what it is worth, as I have only done this once, but it worked out fine. I sandwiched the pieces between two plates of glass with just a little of the edges protruding and clamped the lot on to a metal saw bench. The glass stopped the plane concaving.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 9:27:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Hi

Since i'm building guitars there are some tasks in the guitarmaking process i find to be difficult or even worse, a hassle.

One of this worst tasks is planing the joint for to two halves of the top. Today i have planed two hours and the joint is still not precise enough. I hace tried different planes including some expencive japanese planes but even then, i'm in troubles all the time.

Maybe some of the luthiers here have some useful advice on how to sucessfully plane the two halves.

Thanks

Armando

I think the simplest and easiest way is to lay the top flat on a raised board with a little over hang for the top and then glue some 80 grit sandpaper, I use 3M stick paper, to a leveler that is longer than the length of the top.

I then lay the level on its side and slide the level back and forth against the top's center edge to achieve a straight joint; Keeping the top stable while you sand it.

I usually hold down the top with one hand; sliding the level back and forth with the other hand. Metal levelers are fairly inexpensive and most have very flat surfaces to keep things straight. Just make sure you have a straight leveler that will slide back and forth easily on its side.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 14:30:48

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Hy Tom

I see, you recommend sanding with a leveler over planing with a plane too. O.k. as i was not so successful with planing i'll pobably need to give it a try. I'll let you know haw the outcome was.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 17:16:10

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 12 2010 12:16:50

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:14:13

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Hello Armando,

Here are some pictures of my setup. First I make the edge a little concave in the middle with a small block plane.

By doing this, you don't chase the gap al over the plate.

Then I use a nr 6 (Veritas). The plane has to be (dead) flat, if you can push a paper underneath it (when resting on a flat table) it's not flat..

Also the blade has to be very sharp. The shavings (more like dust) have to be very thin (almost looking through them).

It's a difficult process. Because a lot of things come together at the first stage of building a guitar. Not in the least beacause of the sharping.

Take your time, practise on some A- soundboards first.

Best regards,

Edzard

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:40:30

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

I get an error if I try to add more pictures to the save post...

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:41:50

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Shavings...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:43:06

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Gluing setup

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:44:38

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Finished.

If you finish the joining, glue the plates immediately. If the humidity changes, you can start over again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:48:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

Edzard, your setup is very close to mine. And I also take a little bit from the center first and finish with the long plane. This way you can hear when you have finished the jointing. In the start the jointer plane only shaves the ends, but you can hear how these shavings get longer and the first shaving where you hear one continuous sound from the plane. Stop.... and look. Most times, thats it. If not, try again.

Of course, the plane needs to be flat, the blade needs to be sharp and the shavings very fine. Besides that, try to plane as slow and continuous as possible with very little effort. A drop or two of oil on the side of the plane helps a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 14:58:15

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks for the posts on this thread.

My gratitude and respect for luthiers grows.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 18:36:01

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

see: El Guitarrero.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 19:23:40

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Hy Tom

I see, you recommend sanding with a leveler over planing with a plane too. O.k. as i was not so successful with planing i'll pobably need to give it a try. I'll let you know haw the outcome was.

regards

Armando

Armando,

I always plane it first to get off the rough and uneven edges and then sand it to bring the edges perfectly together.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 19:28:40

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

The problem with using sandpaper is that it leaves a an edge which is more fuzzy than a plane does. Meaning that you might think your result is better than it is when looking towards a strong light or the sun.
Using a sharp plane makes everything clearer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2010 8:21:01

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Armando)

I use a plane myself as I find them to be incredibly quick and less messy. I know a Big name Steel String build who joins using the sand paper method and swears that you can get a better join with it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2010 8:32:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Planing the glue joint a hassle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

The problem with using sandpaper is that it leaves a an edge which is more fuzzy than a plane does. Meaning that you might think your result is better than it is when looking towards a strong light or the sun.
Using a sharp plane makes everything clearer.

This is one thing I have to agree with but there are very few craftsmen who can do it perfectly every time. This is one reason that I use sandpaper on a leveler to finish up.

But then there is always a chance of glue creep along the joint line at a later date, so even this has to be done right.

But by my agreeing with you I am saying that you are doing it the right way.

Most builders don't have a Jack Plane or a joiner plane. Some of these can get very expensive.

But I agree, no educated self respecting violin or guitar maker would use sandpaper. Most would use metal scapers and planes.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2010 14:41:16