i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group...

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at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

i don't want no speeding ticket! kee...

hey guys,
i've been reading some really cool threads about micotiming, rhythm, compas, etc in the archives. but i couldn't find any concrete advice about not speeding up, or rather fighting other's urge to speed up.

i find that it most often happens on the 6,8,10 section. or when i play harder or someone dances louder, or if there's a silence. the excitement seems to provoke speeding up with the palmas.

does anyone have any tips or tricks on how to handle this? i've been trying different things but it's really difficult. and when it's verbalized, it usually turns into a silly blame game.

WHO'S THE JERK THAT SPED UP!? IM WATCHING YOU!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 10:22:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

On your own you need to work on dynamics with a metronome. Knowing that are accidentally speeding up is good because many are not aware. So concentrate on holding down the tempo. Bad palmas are a problem. Only let people do palmas that are solid.

Everyone needs to be aware who has the best timing. If you need to bring in a metronome and test everyone....hopefully it will be obvious who is normally "right" and that person should be respected and not argued with. Don't listen to anyone that wants things to be "elastic" and flexable. It is a problem if that person is the "leader" of the group. I have personally learned to play to my own internal clock and ignore palmas when they are not on. I tell bad palmeros "please don't listen to me playing, just listen to yourself and keep it as steady as you can..." Sometimes that works but not always.

And Cajon that rushes...no offence but you need to get rid of it all together. That instrument has too much control in the matter and needs to be the most solid of the entire group if you are gonna use it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 10:42:31

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

thanks ricardo!

the palmeras are students. it's difficult because people can get offended and it's hard to say something without sounding somewhat like a jerk.

i will take your advice and start bring a metronome in. there's no arguing with a metronome! (well, in some extreme cases, you might get "wtf, that metronome is off!")

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 10:57:50

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

Anthony, I notice during bulerias por fiesta for example, that before each student takes circle time, the principal guitarist takes control with very dramatic and deliberate action to slow everyone down back to a comfortable pace. And that happend during student shows a lot!

It definetly is true that everyone slowly speeds up in the excitement. Just like a choir will slowly rise in pitch if the instrument playing along is not loud enough.

Cheers!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 11:04:39

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to cathulu)

hey chris, can you give me some examples of what the guitarist does? does he play behind the beat or something like that until everyone follows him?

that's interesting about the choir. i've heard stories about a cappella groups usually ending up a half - whole step up by the end of the song. at least we don't have to worry about pitch. just this darn rhythm thing!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 11:11:14

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

Basically he gets everyone to focus on him between the dancers, with very exaggerated movements to get everyone to back to even keel. I am pretty sure but not certain (as I can't recall fully) that they may stop the palmas and cajon and let the guitarist reset the tempo solo. That way you build in a lot of dynamics.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 11:15:51

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

I recommend making a video of yourself playing rhythm. Make it quite long and include all the palo's you know. Leave it for a few days and then watch it. When you watch it back you will notice areas that speed up or slow down. You can then identify technical problems that you can work on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2010 19:57:00

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Everyone needs to be aware who has the best timing. If you need to bring in a metronome and test everyone....hopefully it will be obvious who is normally "right" and that person should be respected and not argued with.

Usually the dancer leads the speed ups, no? So what would you do if your test would result in that the dancer is not the best at it?

Another thing is, imo metronome is ok but in case its not enough, a better test would be a compas loop, someone clapping to it in sync, and then turn the volume down for many seconds before turning it up again. See if its still in sync.

I made the experience that it is as much an attitude problem as it is an ability (to keep rhythm) problem. Accepting and being aware of ones own mistakes is the first step to become better. Without that it is all useless, and people will make up excuses (elastic compas as Ricardo says, or they can only practice whole pieces not sections etc..). Those who saw their mistakes always developed further, at least thats what i have seen.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 2:21:39

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

Next time if it happens get angry and break a chair or two.

If that doesn't help use godfather's method. Take a baseball bat and crush cajon player's (or the dancer's) head to make it a lesson for the others who speed up for no good reason.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 5:03:22

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

At times that probably is the best solution Mike, but its not always practicable because you dont have always a baseball bat with you, or sometimes the cajon player is not there, etc...

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 6:41:36

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

can you give me some examples of what the guitarist does?

close your eyes and pretend they are not there

....or start palmas clases and slowly get them to do what u want...problem is many dancers outside spain view flamenco differently, many do it as a hobby or exercise or just to be out of the house...and thats not even the problem but they are not spending any time on palmas at home or anywhere near enough....unlike us they dont have think to record themselfs so they can hear themselfs...so u have to use what you learned to give them practice ideas and how to approach it as if it was an instrument

if untold or without palmas classes u might have to wait about 6 ...7 ....8 years till they start to be aware of the importance by themselfs...honestly i dont know how and why every single flamenco school dosent have full palmas clases...theres just no way around it...u can have the best dances...if the palmas are crap everything is crap

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 7:03:28

Stu

Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to XXX)

the dancers/teacher in my class,, seem to speed up during rumba!!!
so I go a little faster to match their pulse and they speed up a little more, and the circle continues until they drp back in time again.......its a little strange...only happens during rumba.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 7:04:08

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

does anyone have any tips or tricks on how to handle this?

Thats a good one at_leo-87.
Its quite common when the exitement is there the tempo gets up.
In fact its also done in the standard TOP40 (or whatever it is called) songs. Madonna for instance has a lot of 1 bpm increases at the refrains.

Playing for a group or in a group, IMO, depends on the interaction between people.
I remember the Bulerias Dance class video on Jasons site. I think the teacher or Head-Palmaera (?????) should drive the pulse and others should follow. I liked that in Bulerias video, because of the continues pulse.

How is it when you are in xtc when playing at home, do you follow the metronome strictly or do you find yourselves shutting down the metronome and continue?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 7:40:07

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to cathulu)

chris, that's really extreme! i wouldn't want to resort to that!

kris, that's a great idea. then maybe i can rule myself out. has anyone ever seen that movie, the thing? the scene where they all have to test their blood to see if they're infected?

quote:

Usually the dancer leads the speed ups, no? So what would you do if your test would result in that the dancer is not the best at it?

yeah, during speed up, the dancer should lead. but i've experienced a few cases where the musicians had to ignore the dancer and lead the speed up. yikes!

quote:

Those who saw their mistakes always developed further, at least thats what i have seen.

i've noticed that too. in real life and in this forum. not only does it stop your development, it makes people want to slap you and remind you that you're not god.

quote:

Take a baseball bat and crush cajon player's (or the dancer's) head to make it a lesson for the others who speed up for no good reason.

but they're nice people. do i have to?

quote:

problem is many dancers outside spain view flamenco differently, many do it as a hobby or exercise or just to be out of the house...and thats not even the problem but they are not spending any time on palmas at home or anywhere near enough....unlike us they dont have think to record themselfs so they can hear themselfs...so u have to use what you learned to give them practice ideas and how to approach it as if it was an instrument

yes, a lot of the students still seem to think it's just "casual clapping along." one thing i've noticed is that the unsteady ones always hold their hands close to their chest like they're praying. the confident ones who take it seriously hold their hands further out. it's little trick i've learned to warn myself. lol.

quote:

its a little strange...only happens during rumba.

because no one takes rumbas seriously.

jk!

quote:

How is it when you are in xtc when playing at home, do you follow the metronome strictly or do you find yourselves shutting down the metronome and continue?

ricardo and the rest of this forum have brainwashed me to try to be super tight with the metronome. of course, i'm not perfect but i feel pretty confident with my tempo maintaining abilities. the thing is, i always notice and feel the sensation of being pulled forward when in group situations, i just don't know how to pull it back. after awhile, my leg just gets really tired of stomping so hard!

ok, a little off topic, but ricardo's idea that metronomes > compas loops has been resonating with me more and more lately. what are you guys practicing with nowadays?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 8:19:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Usually the dancer leads the speed ups, no? So what would you do if your test would result in that the dancer is not the best at it?

He is not talking about that ONE OR TWO COMPAS moment where you go from say alegrias into bulerias or solea into buleria, tientos into tangos, etc etc..... the speeding up he refers to is when the tempo is supposed to be solid there and the group is not keeping the groove, they are letting it rush. While I have seen many people from outside of spain who learned flamenco without a clan or group of solid palmeros in their family think it is perfectly OK to let the tempo fluctuate A LOT, the vast majority of flamencos from spain I have met or worked with don't fluctuate tempo even a hair, unless it is a deliberate signaled and controlled accelerando. I will admit the larger the group, the more chance there will be problems over long periods of time. Unless the large group happens to be a bunch of pros aware of such problems.

The easy cheat that those of us whom have NOT grown up in an environment as a small child with the entire family doing solid palmas for hours all night for all our lives, is to simply use a metronome to practice.... and as others have mentioned to record yourself for the outside perspective is important too. Record yourself practicing with a metronome and you will improve overtime. You learn how it "feels" to play even and still do dynamics and make the music build in intensity, without sacrificing the rock solid tempo and groove.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2010 18:17:47

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

ok, i had to revive this thread because i've been feeling pretty frustrated as i have not solved this problem and im getting pretty upset.

it's REALLY bad.

the speeding up issue is a lot better but it's still OFF. i feel like i have to chase the palmas around and constantly make sure i dont throw them off instead of just locking into a groove with them.

it's really hard to ignore the palmas because they're LOUD. and if ignore them and they get off, then it looks like i'm the one who's off.

it's really tiring to play this way and it leads me to make rhythmic mistakes.

sorry for the rant.
not really sure what to do here...

i understand i have to keep working on myself which i am doing. but we have performances in the meantime and im not sure how to fix this problem.

should i test them with a metronome as ricardo suggested?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 21:26:30

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

Just watch the dancer, she should set the pace and tempo. Or get a good cajon player.

What happens when you bring this to the attention of the group? You need to talk about it and if you think the palmas need more practice then make them aware of it. If you have better rhythm then they should follow you. They can watch your foot if they get lost.
In the end you should not have students performing with you if they are not ready.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 22:53:53

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

should i test them with a metronome as ricardo suggested?

sure why not...tell the teacher, u have to drum into them to practice palmas...my approach was i started a palmas class...slowly but surely..atleast I know one day they will do it the way i wanna hear it..that keeps me satisfied

the problem or the good thing is that here we have this place we were are critical of each other and we are all aware of it and work like hell on it and develop compas sooner then a dancer that's been dancing the same amount of time...then you go there and they probably dont have things like this, where they can interact and compare improvement or that motivates them to improve this much this quick...every now any then u get one who understands and works on it alot but rarely...so its frustrating as hell...make no mistake about it this place makes you analyze everything about your playing and that's great but frustrating as hell when you go to class and have to go back...when you know what the feel should and it could be but its not because of the palmas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 22:53:57

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

it's a problem i can relate to....

maybe you could take Ricardo's idea of recording yourself, but record the group etc. and play it back to them so they can hear what they are doing...

definitely I would get everyone to play/palm/dance to a metronome, problem is amplifying it enough

another idea would be to suggest to the palmeros (how many, one, two, three?) that you get together to practise, then all play to the metronome, you can coach them to get better timing, also find out who is on and who is off. it's easier with one or two people only than a big group.

let us know how you get on, you might find some good tips to share!

edit: we're all posting at the same time here!

i would say be careful of upsetting people, some people think they're really good already and don't need to work on anything, but they still feel really criticised if you try to help them or suggest that there's any need for improvement.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:04:57

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Just watch the dancer, she should set the pace and tempo. Or get a good cajon player.

What happens when you bring this to the attention of the group? You need to talk about it and if you think the palmas need more practice then make them aware of it. If you have better rhythm then they should follow you. They can watch your foot if they get lost.
In the end you should not have students performing with you if they are not ready.

it's not so bad with a dancer because i'm accompanying with the guitar and have more control with the tempo. but when i'm play falsetas or doing my solos, that's when it goes to hell. when i pound out the accents, they can follow it. but otherwise, things get really bad.

when i bring it up, it usually turns into, "well, but i think you're the one who's off." although, i know pretty much 100% i'm the only one that works at home on this intensively. and with the foot, they still think it's off. lol.

quote:

sure why not...tell the teacher, u have to drum into them to practice palmas...my answer was i started a palmas class...slowly but surely

the problem or the god thing is that here we have this place we were are critical of each other and we are all aware of it and work like hell on it and develop compas sooner then a dancer that's been dancing the same as you been playing...then you go there and they probably dont have things like this...so its frustrating as hell...make no mistake about it this place makes you analyze everything about your playing

i'll try to get them to work on it more. but it doesn't help when they still think it's me who's off. lol.

you're right. my standard for flamenco wouldn't be so high if it wasn't for this place. but it's really hard to say something while still trying to be cautious not to hurt someone's ego. and it's especially hard because im the newest one to flamenco in the group.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:05:51

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

you're right. my standard for flamenco wouldn't be so high if it wasn't for this place. but it's really hard to say something while still trying to be cautious not to hurt someone's ego. and it's especially hard because im the newest one to flamenco in the group.

yes i totally understand...but think of yourself as the guy in charge of music...it it goes off you get the blame ..so i think its within your right..anyway use tactic ..u can say many things without anyone needing to feel offended..its all in how you say it..

for example..
" i wanna practice this part for myself again...can we go over it again 5 times"

i wanna practice this intro, i wanna get used to this part ...etc.

" it feels like its speeding up in this part, or something sounds wrong in this part..what are doing wrong ? " u dont tell you ask...make them think about it and pay attention to it...and think of way to fix it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:10:23

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

it's a problem i can relate to....

maybe you could take Ricardo's idea of recording yourself, but record the group etc. and play it back to them so they can hear what they are doing...

definitely I would get everyone to play/palm/dance to a metronome, problem is amplifying it enough

another idea would be to suggest to the palmeros (how many, one, two, three?) that you get together to practise, then all play to the metronome, you can coach them to get better timing, also find out who is on and who is off

let us know how you get on, you might find some good tips to share!

when we play to a metronome, (i have it hooked up to a speaker system), they wait for me to start then they just follow my guitar with their distorted palmas. for bulerias, i leave the metronome clicking every three beats. the problem is the stuff in between, they skew or distort the compas but still hit every three beats. it throws me off, i have to ignore them and listen to the metronome.

there already is one recording where i can clearly hear the palmas being ahead of the beat. the difficulty is trying to say something, again, without sounding arrogant or hurting feelings.

i think i'll put the guitar down and really focus on just palmas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:10:35

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

yes i totally understand...but think of yourself as the guy in charge of music...it it goes off you get the blame ..so i think its within your right..anyway use tactic ..u can say many things without anyone needing to feel offended..its all in how you say it..

for example..
" i wanna practice this part for myself again...can we go over it again 5 times"

i wanna practice this intro, i wanna get used to this part ...etc.

ok, i'll try to think of slick ways to say it. it's really frustrating though, sometimes i want to just be super direct and yell, "NO, THAT'S NOT HOW YOU DO IT!"

how are your palmas classes going? are you still teaching?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:12:49

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

well it depends on the personalities..in your group and your sense of humor and how used they are to it...i can get away with something like that...but thats cause they know me really well

i often scream out " what the f*uck was that ?

quote:

how are your palmas classes going? are you still teaching?

yes...starting to notice a small difference already...better then last semester and the one before that...but i have ridiculously high expectations of them and until it sounds as good as solo compas i wont be completely satisfied

and i am still screaming " what the f*uck was that ? " every now and then but more often to relax them and make em lough than to criticize

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:14:11

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

we play to a metronome, (i have it hooked up to a speaker system), ....... i have to ignore them and listen to the metronome.

get a compas track of the exact palmas you want to hear, put it through the speakers, turn it up so that's all you can hear and you can't hear the bad palmas, just play to that - simples!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:17:48

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

i often scream out " what the f*uck was that ? "

HAHAHA

i will give this one a try.

now that i think about it, working with a sense of humor will actually probably be more effective than being stern about it.

quote:

starting to notice a small difference already...better then last semester and the one before that

the problem is that these folks go to all these workshops and classes and get taught really good stuff, but never actually spend time on it at home. it's really cool that you're out there teaching and helping people, especially in an area that gets really neglected.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:19:25

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

get a compas track of the exact palmas you want to hear, put it through the speakers, turn it up so that's all you can hear and you can't hear the bad palmas, just play to that - simples!

i have a feeling i will go deaf soon. these palmeras are competitive and will try to outplay the compas track.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 23:20:52

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

u can say many things without anyone needing to feel offended..its all in how you say it..

Flo I had no idea you were such a diplomat!!

Mark's right it is a problem for lots of us so it's a good thread. More than once I've asked someone doing palmas to stop because "I'm doing this section a bit libre". This is course is a complete lie, I just can't bear them being so out of compas and they don't believe me that they are! It would be better to find a solution tho....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 13:51:18

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

u can say many things without anyone needing to feel offended..its all in how you say it..

and sometimes, with some people, it doesn't matter what you say, or how you say it, they will get offended.... they are offended already

quote:

i have a feeling i will go deaf soon. these palmeras are competitive and will try to outplay the compas track

i know, it's not just the bad palmas that's the problem, it's often the volume of the bad palmas that's the problem....

quote:

the problem is that these folks go to all these workshops and classes and get taught really good stuff

I know that one too, and what they so need is to master the really simple repetitive stuff, just keeping time etc., right? to able to hold basic compas at a rock solid steady tempo (ie. not flapping like a performing seal half out of time and speeding up), and to listen to what's going on and respond to it sensitively (ie. not drown it out with cannon shot palmas all the time).... oh god.... please!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 17:41:17

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)

i'm so glad to know im not the only one that has to deal with this!

quote:

More than once I've asked someone doing palmas to stop because "I'm doing this section a bit libre".

but then they would think i'm off. i have my own ego to protect too.

quote:

I know that one too, and what they so need is to master the really simple repetitive stuff, just keeping time etc., right? to able to hold basic compas at a rock solid steady tempo (ie. not flapping like a performing seal half out of time and speeding up), and to listen to what's going on and respond to it sensitively (ie. not drown it out with cannon shot palmas all the time).... oh god.... please!

exactly! tell me about it!

everybody just wants to do the crazy, fast, loud stuff, all day long.

i can't believe how off some of these people are when you take away the solo compas or the guitar, when they've got nothing to hide behind.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 17:59:55