String buzz

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String buzz

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Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

String buzz

Hy all

I have a problem with string buzz on two of my guitars. The buzz appears mainly on the d string between the 4th and the 9th fret. The other bass strings have buzz too, but less.
The string action at the 12th fret of the two guitars is as follows:

1. E: 3.0mm, e: 2.2mm

2. E: 3.0mm, e: 2.5mm

Both guitars have a positive (foreward) neck angle of approx. 2mm.
The necks are completely straight as is the fretboard. There is no curvature in them neither lenght nor crosswise.

O.k. both guitars do not buzz if played softly but as soon as the bass strings are pushed the buzz becomes disturbing, especially the buzz of the d string.

What can i do to avoid the problem. Don't tell me i should rise the bridge height. That's no option for me.

Any other idea is welcome

Thanks a lot

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 20:43:49

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

i love it when people ask what they should do, and then tell people what not to say.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 20:46:06

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

Hy HemeolaMan

Yes you are right, but that's really not where i want to go, because a good flamenco guitar should not have a bridge height more than 8mm. The two guitars concerned have that or more than that already so that is not the reason for the buzz and a higher bridge adds more torque to the soundboard which is not good for the sound on a flamenco guitar.

regards

Armand

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 20:51:09

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

Perhaps you need some relief? A little bend in the neck is good!

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 21:06:21

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

Not to butt heads, but in my book and many others, a good flamenco guitar has no limit on the action. the string height can be what ever as long as it plays fine. I've seen flamencos with 3mm and 3.3 mm. played just fine.

you're the luthier. you tell us what's wrong.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 21:13:32

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: String buzz (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

Not to butt heads, but in my book and many others, a good flamenco guitar has no limit on the action. the string height can be what ever as long as it plays fine.

Yes and no

I have a book that recomends the correct string action on a flamenco guitar and it's the book "things about the guitar" from José Ramirez III. There is a certain string action that is accepted within professional flamenco players. In Andalucia they say that a Marlboro cigarette should fit underneath the stings just in front of the bridge. So a Marlboro cigarette is not a Cohiba;-) In regards to the playability it's really a matter of taste. Some Flamenco players manage to play flamenco even on a classical guitar, but most flamenco players reject an instrument with such a high string action. I know it. My first flamenco guitar had a string action for a Cohiba and the good players didn't liked that when they tested the instrument in Spain.

regards

Armand

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 21:34:43

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando
In regards to the playability it's really a matter of taste. Some Flamenco players manage to play flamenco even on a classical guitar, but most flamenco players reject an instrument with such a high string action. I know it. My first flamenco guitar had a string action for a Cohiba and the good players didn't liked that when they tested the instrument in Spain.

Exactly right Armando. Flamenco guitars should not have high action. Stephen gave you some good advice about relief. I flies in the face of logic but a little relief allows lower action.

Sadly my experience after many years of building is that some guitars are simply too limber. I've built a few like that in the past and can say there is little you can do to correct the problem. Building is a learning experience.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2010 23:32:34

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: String buzz (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

Perhaps you need some relief? A little bend in the neck is good!

Its a little bit too late for that!
I agree. a bit of relief in the neck or fingerboard is good

But its not too late to relieve the frets between 4 and 9. That should help.

Or the frets could be removed and some relief put in the fingerboard, then refret.

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 8:12:23

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

Thanks for the hints regarding neck relief. I assume i have put some relief into the fretboard as i think the neck should be built as stable as possible. I don't want to build without neck reinforcements.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 11:30:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

Armando, you´re right
The relief you can do on the fingerboard. Dont do to much. just a tenth or 2 of a milimeter. You can also adjust slightly in the frets!!!
Its a lot easyer to make relief on classical because they are almost always played without a capo and thus you can make more relief in the neck.
If you put to much relief in the neck of a flamenco, it´ll start buzzing to much when you use a capo, especially at the 5th or 6th fret, where the relief will be deepest.

My advice would be to work the frets first and if you find that they are to low after making the relief, you can take the frets of and work the fingerboard.

But, as John said, some guitars just like to buzz more than others

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2010 7:31:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Hy all

I have a problem with string buzz on two of my guitars. The buzz appears mainly on the d string between the 4th and the 9th fret. The other bass strings have buzz too, but less.
The string action at the 12th fret of the two guitars is as follows:

1. E: 3.0mm, e: 2.2mm

2. E: 3.0mm, e: 2.5mm

Both guitars have a positive (foreward) neck angle of approx. 2mm.
The necks are completely straight as is the fretboard. There is no curvature in them neither lenght nor crosswise.

O.k. both guitars do not buzz if played softly but as soon as the bass strings are pushed the buzz becomes disturbing, especially the buzz of the d string.

What can i do to avoid the problem. Don't tell me i should rise the bridge height. That's no option for me.

Any other idea is welcome

Thanks a lot

Armando

Here is a little trick I learned from Richard Brune. Make a slight curve in the bass side of the fingerboard, starting at the 7th fret and going in both directions on a long but slight taper; bass side only. This should help you get rid of some of the buzzing. Leave the treble side fairly flat but blend the bass into the treble side very slightly. I would not go too curved, as about .5 mm, perhaps slightly more, should do it at the 7th fret.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2010 20:44:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

The main problem with relief, is that what is important, is the relief that a guitar will have with strings of the tension that a player will be using. Not the amount of relief it´ll have without frets and strings.

So the final judgement will be with strings on.

You need to know how much your guitars neck flexes with strings on or you´ll have correct. I´ve built with and without reinforcement and all my necks have a small flex.
If I did what TB suggests 0,5 - 0,7mm relief at the 7th fret), I would end up with to much relief and players using capo a lot , such as the ones accompanying cante, would not be happy.
But what works for me, might be wrong for someone else.

As with every aspect of guitarmaking, there are no fixed "golden" rules, plans or whatever. You have to find your own way.
(Using both sides of the brain

)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2010 7:39:59

jlneng

Posts: 118
Joined: Jun. 28 2009

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

try switching to lower tension strings...........

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2010 23:11:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

quote:

try switching to lower tension strings...........

Why and in which way could it help.
If any changes are to be expected, a change to lower tension would be the opposite as what Armondo wants. He wants more relief, so if you think you can get more relief by changing strings, it would have to be with a higher tension (Higher tenion makes the neck flex some more = more relief)

Maybe you could fix the guitars problem this way, but maybe not the players problem. I personally dont like to play with a to high tension strings. And would end up with a guitar with a correct setup that I wouldn´t find comfortable.

On this foro there´s a tendency to focus on the guitar as the object in itself. This I find to be totally wrong. The guitar on its own is just a box with strings.
The good guitar is a tool which works with the player who owns/play it. This means that it should have a correct setup with the strings that the player like to use. Not visa versa.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2010 15:46:12

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: String buzz (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

i love it when people ask what they should do, and then tell people what not to say.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 0:47:57

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

On the first guitar you have quoted 2.2mm on the high e.
That is very low, too low IMHO and is probably affecting the volume on the treble strings.
The D string is very flexible and can use a bit more clearance, try a saddle which is a little higher in the centre rather than just flat across the top.
If the worst area is between frets 4-9 adding relief is not going to help, relief is mainly useful for the first few frets.
If there are individual frets which give problems then a fret level and dressing may help, but you may just be expecting too much.
A low setup will buzz if pushed hard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 20:55:28

Markus3

Posts: 34
Joined: Oct. 13 2010

RE: String buzz (in reply to Armando)

Id had the same problem with this cheap carlos Robelli guitar that i got for free. What i did is bought my self a better guitar, or you could just increase the action of the strings by replacing the cejilla de Puente with a bigger one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Hy all

I have a problem with string buzz on two of my guitars. The buzz appears mainly on the d string between the 4th and the 9th fret. The other bass strings have buzz too, but less.
The string action at the 12th fret of the two guitars is as follows:

1. E: 3.0mm, e: 2.2mm

2. E: 3.0mm, e: 2.5mm

Both guitars have a positive (foreward) neck angle of approx. 2mm.
The necks are completely straight as is the fretboard. There is no curvature in them neither lenght nor crosswise.

O.k. both guitars do not buzz if played softly but as soon as the bass strings are pushed the buzz becomes disturbing, especially the buzz of the d string.

What can i do to avoid the problem. Don't tell me i should rise the bridge height. That's no option for me.

Any other idea is welcome

Thanks a lot

Armando