New thread to break the boreness

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Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

New thread to break the boreness

Hy all

As in some other luthier forums i find this one suffers boreness in the last times too. There are just a few threads really related to luthiery and very little of them are of interest to me. I don't know if i am the only one who feels that. Btw. what about Anders? I didn't read any recent comment from him anymore. Anders...are you still around?

O.k. as there is no material around for dispute, i'll put some. These are just pretences.

1. Smallman's lattice bracing beats Torres fan bracing in all respects.

2. German spruce is a hype. Any other spruce is as good or even better for less money.

3. Tuning a soundboard and a back to certain frequencies is in vain. It won't make a guitar sound any better.

4. There is a secret in the treatment of the soundboard and the varnish that leads to an outstanding tone.

5. The human aspect of crafting a guitar doesn't play a role in terms of the tone. If we assume that two luthiers with the same skills builds the same model of guitar with the same woods, the two guitars would sound alike.

O.k. i hope this is enough to allure the sleeping chucks to wake up from their winter sleep and leave the hole.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2010 21:08:15

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

eh..comeon..threads about luthiery are so boring.. Lets talk about women instead!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2010 21:15:54

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

I'll start with #2

2. True. "German" spruce is good but it's not the only good spruce.

3. True within reason. In general I would say the back should be tuned higher than the top.

4. ?? You mean shellac vs. lacquer?

5. Totally untrue, they would still vary in their approach to voicing the instrument.

and finally

1. If you believe this I will cut you

now get out of my hole

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2010 21:19:05

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

imo 1 to 5 are a little boring. that won't wake up all people....

6. No one and no Guitar can beat a good Conde

this will wake up everybody from winter sleep for sure

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2010 22:01:57

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

Here's a question that I had previously asked just in passing on a different thread, but nobody answered.

Most, if not all, of the great Spanish luthiers of the past free-handed the outline of the top, and did not use a template. I have seen a photo of a Torres that is very obviously asymmetrical.

My question is, do any of the luthiers here on the Foro free-hand their tops, or have they occasionally tried it, and what were the results. And does anyone know any current luthier who free-hands his tops.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2010 22:17:58

daffey

Posts: 98
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: Los Angeles, California

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Arash)

I heard PDL is back to a Devoe again ~

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2010 23:53:02

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

and finally

1. If you believe this I will cut you now get out of my hole

No, i don't believe that for sure, but this one was necessary to provoce some people.

regards

Armando

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2010 19:20:16

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

quote:

Most, if not all, of the great Spanish luthiers of the past free-handed the outline of the top, and did not use a template. I have seen a photo of a Torres that is very obviously asymmetrical.

Must have been very old guitars or cheap guitars.. .IMO

Making world-class guitars is a science of its own... I doubt they freehand outline their guitars anymore. There is too much money behind that to gamble with quality.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2010 20:43:55

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

quote:

1. Smallman's lattice bracing beats Torres fan bracing in all respects.

I don’t know of anyone using lattice bracing in a flamenco, but I don’t think it would be too successful. It’s my understanding, lattice braced guitars lack percussiveness. For classical’s that may be fine, but not a flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2010 21:03:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic
Most, if not all, of the great Spanish luthiers of the past free-handed the outline of the top, and did not use a template. I have seen a photo of a Torres that is very obviously asymmetrical.

I think "free handed" is incorrect. What they did was bend the sides then put the top on them and trace the outline. You can end up with waists that don't particularly match and assymmetrical shapes but it's pretty much irrelevant. Some of us still do it that way although the sides are held in a form to keep the shape accurate. I like the idea of guitars being more organic rather than the perfect factory made units.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2010 0:04:50

Guest

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

quote:

Smallman's lattice bracing beats Torres fan bracing in all respects.

dispute that
smallmans have great volume but not great for really subtle playing...the little nuances...this where a well made torres style guitar works beautifully..
however i believe jim redgate's bracing system as well as his double top guitars are superior to both....
he recently made a reyes (from a blueprint) for a friend as a one off...
that guitar spoke volumes...just trying to get him to make another...
http://www.redgateguitars.com/Redgate_Guitars/Welcome.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2010 1:47:17

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVal

quote:

Smallman's lattice bracing beats Torres fan bracing in all respects.

however i believe jim redgate's bracing system as well as his double top guitars are superior to both....
he recently made a reyes (from a blueprint) for a friend as a one off...
that guitar spoke volumes...just trying to get him to make another...
http://www.redgateguitars.com/Redgate_Guitars/Welcome.html

Nice website for that Redgate.. just looking at the website makes me think that his guitars are super expensive.. Did your friend have to pay a premium for Redgate to make a guitar out of of the blueprint other than making his own designs?

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2010 2:12:24

Guest

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to HolyEvil)

hi
oddly enough jim made that guitar as gift for a friends 40th birthday so.....
spent a few hours on it before it went..
did an A-B against my ramirez a Maldonado and a Conde media Luna
Jims guitar came up trumps in terms of projection, playability,tone and aesthetics..
my opinion only...{might go as far as the best instrument i have played}
it was his first flamenco and was made directly from a reyes blueprint
price?
no idea
Jim is a friend so hoping i may be able to coax him into making another..
damn my 40th has passed
Jims guitars are pretty sought after in the classical world but a far less expensive than a smallman or a Thomas Humphries for example...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2010 3:36:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVal

did an A-B against my ramirez a Maldonado and a Conde media Luna
Jims guitar came up trumps in terms of projection, playability,tone and aesthetics..
my opinion only...{might go as far as the best instrument i have played}
it was his first flamenco and was made directly from a reyes blueprint

Do you know who drew the guitar plan. If it was not the one I drew for the Guild of American Luthiers, then I would like to have a copy of it for my own files.

The 2003 Reyes style guitar plan I drew is hard to make a mistake with. I've heard from first time builders being surprised at how well their first guitar sounded.

As far as I know this was the first guitar plan with the actual fine tuning printed into it; with the fan brace sizes, shapes and tapers.

Tom Blackshear guitar maker

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2010 13:41:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Armando)

I find that questions 1 - 5 are extremely mental and have nothing to do with lutherie.

Real guitarbuilding is to sit down for a long time and find your inner vibrations. When done, you close your eyes take all the wood you have lying around and choose what is in harmony with your inner vibrations.

This way you dont need to waste your time with never ending exercises like tuning, voicing etc. and you can have a beer, a glass of wine and watch curling on the telly. Other important aspects of luthiery

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2010 8:16:19

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic
Most, if not all, of the great Spanish luthiers of the past free-handed the outline of the top, and did not use a template. I have seen a photo of a Torres that is very obviously asymmetrical.

I think "free handed" is incorrect. What they did was bend the sides then put the top on them and trace the outline. You can end up with waists that don't particularly match and assymmetrical shapes but it's pretty much irrelevant. Some of us still do it that way although the sides are held in a form to keep the shape accurate. I like the idea of guitars being more organic rather than the perfect factory made units.

I agree Mr. Shelton, and the way I think this was done is that builders took the basic shape of the top and build to that shape and then allowed the sides to relax and put the back on. This created a different shape with the back and the top but it did relax the box for a limited stress factor.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2010 12:32:44

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: New thread to break the boreness (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I've heard from first time builders being surprised at how well their first guitar sounded.

Hy Tom

I'm one of these Luthiers. I'm still very statisfied with the result although i can't say that the sound compares to a real reyes, but the sound is still very good and sounds very flamenco. That's what people say who heard my reyes model (Guitar Nr. 5) on my website.

http://www.spanishguitars.ch/index.php?id=19,0,0,1,0,0

Anders

Oh i see you are back again. Long time i didn't hear something about and from you. Nice to have you back here too. O.k. regarding my points 1 to 5, you are probably right that these questions are mental. I thought that's fine to make the start;-)

Btw. i prefere to use my mind for everything i do in combination with the right brain. But yes, usually the left brain wins and i'm working on that, but i don't see a competition within the two, they should rather complement each other.

I know we have here two different philosophies of guitarmaking, the so called left and the so called right brain luthery. I think they don't necessarily need to conflict.

I find the following statement of Luthier Per Hallgren hits the nail:

I'm sure that especially those luthiers with a strong personal approch can deal with the different phyolsopies even if they do not agree.

best regards

Armando