fine tuning E chord

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fine tuning E chord

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Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

fine tuning E chord

OK so I tune my guitar and play an Emajor chord like this:

0-2-2-1-0-0

sounds fine. Then I play one like this this:

0-7-9-9-0-0

and it sounds really out of tune.

Any suggestions?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 18:34:30

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

I use both of them in playing solea ,
so I don't think one of them will fall out of tune .. don't play them in order
wat I mean is try to play a Llamada based on Emajor (0-2-2-1-0-0) and then play the other one (0-7-9-9-0-0 )
something like this :
(0-2-2-1-0-0) -> (0-2-0-1-0-0) -> (1-3-3-2-0-0) ->Golpe
(0-0-2-1-0-0) ->Golpe->(0-0-3-2-1-0)->(0-0-2-1-0-0)->(0-0-3-2-1-0)->(0-0-2-1-0-0)
take a breath and play (0-7-9-9-0-0 ) it doesn't sound that bad

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 18:56:37

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

This might be showing up problems with the guitar's set-up e.g. fretting, warped neck etc.

How does it sound when you play a harmonic above the 12th fret then compare that to the fretted 12th... on each string?

I ask because I just tried your chords on a cheap steel string that I haven't tuned up since March and it sounded fine to my ears.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 19:13:57

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

This might be showing up problems with the guitar's set-up e.g. fretting, warped neck etc.

eeek! that's what I was worried about!

OK well I've tried at the 12th frets on all the strings and that sounds OK. Having listened a bit more closely it's not all the strings that are out on the second voicing. I think for some reason it's just the G string is going sharp at the 9th fret, so that's why the chord sounds out of tune. No idea why the G should behave differently.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 19:23:28

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Ailsa,

I don't use a guitar tuner, but just a tuning fork and just use relative tuning....and getting everything in tune all the way up the fretboard for each key is a bit of an art (and a keen ear!)

It's just the nature of fretted instruments.

It's always a bit of a compromise.

ToddK posted something about this a while back.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 19:29:39

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Do a search. I found this http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=50509

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 19:32:15

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Escribano)

Cool, thanks Ron and Simon I'll read that thread and see if it answers my question.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 19:45:21

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Have your tried a different G string? If the string is not uniform in diameter and density it could cause the problem you describe. It happens.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 19:58:21

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

There is a slight possibility that it's the strings. Are you by any chance using Augustine Classic? For many years Augustine Classic, the original nylon strings, had intonation problems because of the softer composition of the nylon. And the problems would generally show up on the higher frets, but not the lower. I'm not sure if that is still the case. But even with any make, a faulty string can cause intonation problems.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 20:06:37

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ramon Amira)

I second the G-string theory, especially if you have a decent guitar with decent intonation and no warping.

And as for Augustines, yuk....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 20:34:46

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Hey Ailsa, classic case of a guitar being a guitar.
Most guitars that do not have some compensation (altering the scale length slightly at the saddle or nut, sometimes differently for different strings) will have intonation problems as you move up the neck. Notes go sharp because when you press the string down to the fret, you are stretching it slightly and raising the pitch.
The G string is a notorious culprit. You can actually compensate just the G string if you want by filing back the edge of the saddle under the G a bit...

http://www.youtube.com/user/JMichaelThames#p/u/9/xYvF2GA8OOQ

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2010 22:33:59

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Ive always found the g-string to have the most tuning trouble. Ill start tuning using an open E chord until it sounds perfect. I then play open C chord, and naturally, the g-string is off. If you can balance its tuning to where E and C start sounding equally good, then youre ok. This is very simplified equal-temperament tuning.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 2:43:17

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Ailsa,
as you tested the guitar on the 12th fret I assume the guitar is ok.
This is how I learned to tune by ear.

The 5th and 7th harmonics, directly tested with a harmonic against a note.
String 3 and 4 slightly raised and 6, 2 and 1 slightly lowered.
As the tuning and testing are completed I play a few of the chords to hear any problems.

First tune the A string and than the D by playing the harmonics of 5th A, the 7th of D. Detune the D slightly untill you hear "beats" than tune it up untill you don't hear any "beats" anymore, than slightly raise it and test it.

It took me a while to get used to it and actually hear the "beats", but now it is a lot easier to tune.

PS
I left the picture this big so you can print it out if you want.
The squares are harmonics to play and the circles notes.
The dotted lines are damped strings.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 7:16:50

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks everyone, that's really helpful. I would like to improve how I tune so I'll work on that.

And por medio I'm with you on Augustines - tried them once but they gave me a really yukky sound so they didn't last long.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 7:29:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

Are you tuning with an electronic tuner or with a tuning fork and your ear?

To my ear the 3rd of the open 1st position E chord (1st fret, 3rd string, G# note) often sounds a bit sharp.

I used to tweak it flat a shade, and adjust the 2nd and 1st strings as well, but more recently I have been completely ignoring the 3rds and fine tuning with octaves and fifths instead.

What is it with 3rds?

Why do they often sound a bit sharp?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 13:41:43

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

To my ear the 3rd of the open 1st position E chord (1st fret, 3rd string, G# note) often sounds a bit sharp.

Interesting. Every time I finish tuning, the first thing I play is an E Major chord, and every time the second string open B sounds a little flat to me. I'll listen a little closer next time - maybe the G# is actually sounding a little sharp, as you say, which might make the B sound a little flat relative to the G#.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 18:39:47

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Interesting. Every time I finish tuning, the first thing I play is an E Major chord, and every time the second string open B sounds a little flat to me. I'll listen a little closer next time - maybe the G# is actually sounding a little sharp, as you say, which might make the B sound a little flat relative to the G#.

Yeah PC...I'm not Classicaly trained or anything, but from my own experiences I think that G string is the cause of a lot of guitar tuning problems.
Sometimes when tuning, I get frustrated 'cos some things sound in and other things sound out.....In a rage I keep sharpening and fattening various strings slightly...and suddenly it's there!

But way off A= 440Hz.

And if you think I'm gonna lose that setting and try to get back into exact "concert" pitch...well...

You gotta be jokin'!

(That's why all my uploads are "off"..

)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 18:54:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

What is it with 3rds?

Why do they often sound a bit sharp?

We discussed this much in the past. Search for "equal tempered tuning".

It is the painful reality of the equal tempered system of tuning that guitars and pianos
need to deal with in order to be able to play in more then ONE key per song.

I reiterrate DON"T TUNE TO CHORDS....tune the open strings only. UNLESS you are
going to attempt truely MODAL music, which doesn't really work on guitars or pianos.

Learn to live with sharp sounding thirds and 6ths, and other imperfections. Make sure
your open strings are all pretty much in tune to each other (not 3rd-2nd which is a
major third. That has to be a hair sharp.

)

Use open harmonics to tune also because finger pressure can affect a string as well.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2010 20:05:39

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

We discussed this much in the passed.

ah, yes, of course. although i nearly always now check the archive before starting a new thread, i often forget in mid conversation....

having checked the archives I now also understand why the major thirds sound sharp - 'cos of tempering.

also, two other things, harmonics and fretted notes:

re harmonics, i find an explanation of why not to tune with harmonics;

quote:

Cycle of fifths does not resolve to a note which is the same as the starting note.

How so, well take a guitar low E string, divide it in three and you get a B one octave and a fith higher (which you can tune your B string to). Take a new string tuned to that note and repeat the procedure, so, E,B,F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,F,C,G,D,A and back to E.
Now when you divide your string in two you get an octave (the same note again higher, exactly twice the frequency) now the E (or any other note) that you get when you go up the cycle of fifth actually has a DIFFERENT frequency (is a slightly different note )than the one that you get by doubling continually. Play the two together and it is pretty appalling. This is fundamentally why tuning on any instrument is a compromise and why it is sometimes a very bad idea to tune your guitar with harmonics.

and re fretted notes

quote:

I reiterrate DON"T TUNE TO CHORDS....tune the open strings only.

the basic method of tuning involves fretting a note on the 5th fret and tuning the open string above it, so that would put that method out, the only option would be tune to electric tuner, pitch pipes, set of 6 tuning forks or piano.

i guess what you are reiterating is;

quote:

Over the years I have learned to stay away from fine tuning to chords. In fact I try to keep my left hand OFF the fingerboard all together when tuning. You would be surprised how the slightest left hand pressure can affect the precision of tuning. And in the end, you can actually play MORE in tune by the the way you finger certain notes and chords. It takes many years to develop the feel, and hear the difference.

i never heard of this before, so i thought i would check it out and see if i could hear the difference. I tuned my low E with digi tuner, exact. Then fretted an A at 5th fret of that string. I pressed really hard, A exact. I barely touched it. A exact. I played right up behind the fret. A exact. I played as far back from the fret as I could get. A exact.

Then i repeated with tuning A string to tuner and fretting D at 5th fret. Same thing. I can't hear a difference in pitch either, even though the sound quality changes (it buzzes more further back or with light pressure)

Either I'm not doing this right, or the tuner is wrong or not accurate enough, or my guitar's action is so low finger pressure it doesn't make a difference - maybe it makes more difference on your guitar/s?

Now i think maybe it stands to reason, that as long as the string goes over the FRET that is where the string length determines the pitch, never mind how far behind it (as long as it's in the fretspace behind) or how hard i press.

I could be wrong, but based on the information i have at present, that's what it looks like.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2010 11:22:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: fine tuning E chord (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

I can't hear a difference in pitch either, even though the sound quality changes

The effect is very subtle if you have super low action, low frets etc. Just take a note on
say the 9th fret of D string. Now pull toward the bridge. Now pull back toward the nut.
You should notice a change of pitch. doing that rapidly is vibrato. It can be
exaggerated or very subtle. A higher action guitar with higher frets will have a more
noticeable difference. the most exaggerated would be a guitar with a scolloped
fingerboard. People not used to such a neck have a hard time playing in tune period.

So back to the low action example, yes it won't be so noticeable. Not everyone plays
with the exact same amount of fingerpressure. But why take the risk AT ALL that you
might be affecting the pitch with your finger, even just a little, when you can tune
open strings perfectly easily and ensure that the strings are in tune RELATIVE TO EACH
OTHER?

Tuning to harmonics is not much different then just tuning to open 4ths... the point
being is you are equalizing the relationship between open strings. It is a little easier to
hear the beats in the higher frequencies, that is all.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2010 17:15:31