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What is Your Weapon of Choice: Metronome, Drum Machine, Compás CDs, or Software?
Lately, I have been pondering this question to determine what tool would work best in helping stay in compás and practice techniques (i.e. rasquados, alzapúa, tremolo, etc.).
In the past I’ve used a regular metronome, the Graf-Martinez Flamenco Metronome, and Solo Compás Cds. All have their value I suppose, but there is always something lacking. A regular metronome lacks accent beats, the Graf-Martinez Flamenco Metronome lags and is missing the deep base of the cajón, and the Solo Compás Cds seem better suited for dancers.
My gut tells me that the best tool to use would be something that is programmable (allows for customized beats with different drums) yet intuitive. This idea points me in the direction of Oscar Herrero’s Flamenco Metronome (software version) or a full on Drum Machine. However, both tools appear to require a considerable learning curve and I’m not sure how authentic the drums on the OH Flamenco Metronome sound. I have even been considering purchasing an Ipod touch so I can use the iFlamenco app.
What I’m looking for is a tool that: • I can feel the base or beat with when I practice • Intuitive or easy to learn and use (although I realize a steep learning curve maybe unavoidable) • Is programmable that will allow me to select the cajon, palmas, foot, snare drum etc. • I can use to record with • Is portable and I can use for backing tracks or loops if ever I perform at a wedding, coffee shop, etc in the future
The ideal tool would be an all-in-one device or software.
Here are the questions is have for you: • What is your tool of choice? / What would you recommend? • In your opinion, what are the best features of each tool mentioned above? • How steep are the learning curves on the a drum machine or OH Flamenco Metronome?
As always, thank you in advance for your valuable opinions.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
quote:
What is your tool of choice? / What would you recommend?
Well, Lucerom....this may not be what you want to hear, but basically just anything that produces a steady beat.
Flamenco compás is best learned by listening to heaps and heaps of Flamenco singing with guitar accomp...and just keeping a steady beat with your foot as you listen.
You then pick up the pattern and feel for the basic rhythms. Believe me...this is the best way in the long run.
I use the free "Flamenco Master" metronome if I'm trying to work out the phrasing of a tricky falseta and playing slowly.
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
Yeah, man, a standard tick tick metronome will do just fine. You don't really need the accents - if you're playing bulería, I've found that using the metronome in 6 (or even in just a steady click) works beautifully, for the most part. Some people (like Ricardo, I think) will tell you that the compás tracks and all that can become a crutch, and it's best to just use a standard metronome. So I try to use that when I can.
That said, lately I've ended up using Jason's new online metronome at doctorcompas.com because it's just so much fun to work with. You can't use it offline (yet) but it's got the palos programmed in, has palmas and cajón and all that, and basically has way more than you'll ever need.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
An example how I use a metronome..or how I learn every falseta.
To understand a falseta I analyse it on paper.
Then I learn to play it with metronome at very slow speed but some minor parts out of compas.
Then I check how to fit that in the compas in detail. If possible I play along with the original at slow tempo to get the nuances.
Then I play along at full speed with the original if there is one. If not I raise the speed step by step with metronome till I reach the speed I need.
If I think Im save, I let some friends clap, play along their compas and we enjoy it together. If there are problems. I go back to step 1.
I use a normal metronome. Or software that does the same. Just single beeps. No fancy compases. They are usually not helping in bulerias where the compas changes every now and than.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
Long time ago i bought a programmable metronome, which lets you program all kinds of rhythms (up to 12 beats) and chain them together. But i touched it only 3 times as i cant stand the sound of it. How can one play beautiful music whilst having a BEEP BEEEP BEEP in your ear? Its a miracle to me. So i use solo compas mainly. When i hear palmas something happens in me and im much more motivated. Im spoiled by good sound maybe...
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
for practise and learning i usually a metronome, but i nearly always use one that marks 2's, 3's, 4's or 6's, so it marks compas as well as the beat, and so i can't go out of compas without knowing it (it's a bell on the wind up ones, or just an accent bleep on the electronic ones).
i bought a programmable mundobeat when they came out (the herrero/graf-martinez flamenco metronome of it's day, but semi-obsolete technology now i guess), and though i have phases of using it i really don't use it much anymore.
i also use solo compas cd's sometimes for variation.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
another vote for just a metronome.
some technique exercises are not set into a specific compas so just a straight metronome is best. if you want something that doesn't "help" you stay in compas but "teaches" you how to stay in compas, then metronome is best. i've seen way too many people become dependent on solo compas. and when they dont have something pounding out the accents for them and telling them where they are, they fall apart.
you dont need accented beats because that would just do the work for you, wouldn't it?
solo compas is fun to play to but for real practice, i use a metronome starting with a click every quarter beat, then like mark does, 2's, 3's, 4's, 6's, etc.
i use the beat vibe app for the ipod touch. you can set it to click in 6's or whatever you need for any speed, which you cant with a regular metronome. plus it has compas tracks when you want it plus a lot of other features. best bang for the buck ever.
i have the iflamenco app as well. it's really hard to use not because it has a steep learning curve but because it's so small, it's impossible to push any of the buttons accurately. and as far as i know, you cant set a specific speed, just a rough estimate.
to give you an idea of how far a metronome can take you here's a video of ricardo learning a falseta to just his foot tap (he's tapping in 2's)
and some metronome techniques and ideas that can be applied to flamenco (or any other genre)
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to at_leo_87)
I agree with pretty much everything from above. My advice is that you should learn to use EVERYTHING - that is Solo Compas CD, Flamenco Metronome like Jason's Dr Compas, traditional metronomes (beep beep beeps or click click clicks), downbeat, upbeat, no beat. Do it all.
Also practice with foot tapping, and no foot tapping.
But the most important of all, and perhaps this might answer your "missing something" question, is that you have to feel the compas in your body, or in your musical soul. So even if there's nothing to keep you the beat (no metronome, no palmas, no foot tapping), your BODY feels it and your compas comes out that way.
But I think to get there, you have to get every help that you can get.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to at_leo_87)
quote:
ORIGINAL: at_leo_87 i've seen way too many people become dependent on solo compas. and when they dont have something pounding out the accents for them and telling them where they are, they fall apart.
I can play to a solo compas track and tell you exactly where i am. If you dont know what compas is, neither a solo compas track, nor a metronome will help you. Besides that i think pro medios view is the only correct one: just use everything that you feel is helping you.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
I always use a metronome, Korg KDM-2, its very easy to use, you don't need a computer or find the right Compas cd's, and you can adjust the tempo easier, unless solo compas tracks.
ofcourse the sound isn't that nice as palmas, but its loud and clear tough
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
quote:
But i touched it only 3 times as i cant stand the sound of it. How can one play beautiful music whilst having a BEEP BEEEP BEEP in your ear? Its a miracle to me.
Deniz,..this way you get the quality of your playing to the face. If you are good, you can play nicely to beep beep beep and its much more accurate for practice. Solo compas backing is like cloaking your faults. So, metronome for practice and if you want so... solo compas for fun afterwayds during fun-time.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
I've made my own version of the Flamenco Clock metronome with bouncing visuals.
It's a stand alone program for windows. $26.99 with many disounts e.g. 50% off for education (student or teacher), 90% off for very low income. Also comes with a 30 day free test drive so you can try it out and see if it is what you want.
Anyway should be okay for timing as I've done a lot of work making sure that the metronome keeps time well. If the videos on the web page pause at all, don't worry, that's just a media streaming issue and doesn't affect the stand alone metronome in any way.
Not sure about all your other points. But you can choose any instrument to play any of the parts. So for instance you can play any of the standard GM non melodic percussion instruments on nearly any computer (depends on your soundcard or installed midi synths). That includes one hand clap, and a claves sound, and some drums, woodblock etc, but you'll only get an approximation to the sounds you want that way.
However if you get a soundfont player such as SynthFont and you look out for a suitable sound font, then you can play any instrument you like which has been converted into that format via midi out (and midi virtual cable - easy to do).
Here is an example soundfont you can download and use with a soundfont player like SynthFont
Has palmas, Tinaja and Cajón playing in various ways - mapped to notes above and below middle C on midi instruments 0 to 2 (but not pitched to the pitch of the note they are mapped to so essentially it's a non melodic percussion type font but played from midi insturments 0 to 2 instead of using the more usual drum kit).
Anyway you could play those sounds using any of the notes in the rhythm (and any instrument for any of the notes) using Bounce Metronome Pro, but because of the way that soundfont works, it will be a bit fiddly setting it up at present, especially if you want to set the instrument separately for each beat of the rhythm. It's something I can address in a future update of the software - I've just added it to the wish list.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to robert_inventor)
wow. an aquatic 3d bouncing flamenco metronome !
Seems a shame to have all that empty ocean there, and those hoops temptingly suspended in mid air, without having animated dolphins to jump through them. They could flick their tails or wink at you as you hit the 3,6,8,10 etc.
I'd like to add this suggestion onto your 'must do' wish list for future versions.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to robert_inventor)
that thing is HUGE! I can only imagine how much effort there has gone into it. Its very complicated, but it bears alot of options! Once you know how to use it, you can probably create any kind of rhythm with all kinds of overlappings in short time... just one thing: when having beat number words, the six is counted as three or something.
to Doitsujin: i agree in some cases metronome can be more accurate. I just cant stand the sound of the click. For "face value" of your playing i would rather recommend playing in a bulerias class with 10 people and only 1 of them is clomping in compas (of course having nobody clapping or solo compas, even without metronome ;)), or playing in front of a knowledgeable teacher when you are excited.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to XXX)
Great!
Well if you want to know, easy answer. It's grown gradually over many years. Started up as my Tune Smithy program to make fractal tunes. So far been programming Bounce Metronome Pro itself for a year full time, more than that maybe more like one and a half years total programming time, on top of the code I'd already done for Tune Smithy which is many years of work now.
Yes that's a bug, showing the wrong numbers when you set it to bouncing numbers, thanks for reporting it. Duplicated it here, and I'll do a fix soon and will post when it is done.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to flybynight)
Love your picture of the bouncing dolphins :-). Great idea if perhaps a bit tricky to actualy do.
Actually could do it as a wish though - can add wish to be able to import animations from other programs to use in BM Pro in various ways.
I'm sure there are nice animations of jumping dolphins you can make with specialist 3D animation programs e.g. to use in 3D games, so if you could import them into the scene somehow then you would be half way there. But I wouldn't have any idea how to import them into BM Pro at present, just haven't researched it. Almost certainly possible but I'm working at a low level so might have to write the code to import it as well - or maybe there is some 3rd party library I could use.
Could go the other way quite quickly with a day or two of programming, could easily add a way to export the BM Pro 3D scenes in the "obj" 3D file format as I did that with one of my other programs. Could export a sort of animation as a series of 3D scenes though not very efficient. It is the sort of thing that you might want to do if for some reason you wanted to include a jazzed up version of the animation in some other movie or game or something, export it from BM Pro, then add your dolphins or whatever in one of those 3D game or similar animation programs - and then render it at highest quality e.g. to make a fun movie of it. Though might be tricky to change the tempo - again though once you have it frame by frame in 3D file format, you would think, not impossible to do things like warp one frame to the next or something to let the movie run at any tempo.
But more easily, can do it already - you can show an animation for the "Sky" behind the bouncing balls, any animation you like, except that some formats work better than others. You can even watch a movie - with support for subtitles too - behind the metronome as you play. Some musicians like to do that when they need to practice with a metronome for long hours at a time.
It is usually best in .avi file format however it can read other file formats as well or you can use another program to convert movies into a file format it can show more easily.
You can do the same with the "sea" too, also can do it without the sea so the bouncing balls float in the air in front of some other animation which you have running fills the screen behind it. Oh and you can run the whole thing full screen on your computer as well.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
Fixed this now. Have some other things to do so haven't yet uploaded the fix, could do a beta if anyone wanted it urgently but ready in a day or two anyway. More later.
quote:
just one thing: when having beat number words, the six is counted as three or something.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to robert_inventor)
Uploaded the fix with the numbers now.
Here is a video:
However, just after the upload I've found a few more minor bugs so will be doing another day or two on the Flamenco metronome to fix them, then will do another upload. Nothing of any great consequence.
Anyone noticed anything else while I'm working on it?
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to robert_inventor)
quote:
Anyone noticed anything else while I'm working on it?
I was just checking it out Robert. Few things that comes to mind:
Its very overwhelming! Where do I start? Are the menu's in this screen the same as in the previous one. Maybe it is my concentration disorder which holds me back on exploring further, or maybe it could be less overwhelming.
Personally I would pay some attention to a more structural layout of the metronome. Less is more. Creating an intersting and easy interface is a hard job, but it will pay out in the end.
What I do like is the visual representations. Its nice to focus on the accents for example and see the elastic chord. But also the harmonic rhythms...its gamalan like in a way
All by all, one hell of a machine, but it could presented less complicated. (Ofcours all IMHO)
BTW Why are you offering it at different prices? I am from India, but browse the web via a proxy in the Netherlands
Namaste!
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RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to kozz)
Thanks Kozz, good points.
I've got plans for a new version starting from scratch, minimalist app for mobile devices and Mac - but if I do it that will be a good few months away.
Anyway while thinking about that I've had some ideas about how to make the interface simpler. Basically I'd start with the 3D view, and when you start up the first thing you see is just the big 3D window. Whether that's the right thing to do for the PC as well, I don't know.
I could also do much more radical pruning of the "less" versions of all the windows, retaining the "more" versions of them as is. This is something I can do very quickly which may help with the situation right away.
Idea is to look at each window and think - which things in this window are you most likely to want to change fairly often?
EXAMPLE WINDOW FOR THIS IDEA
For instance, looking at "Bouncing Balls - 3D Visuals (Ctrl + 226)" just now - could have a much simpler version of that window.
Looking at it now, these are the controls I'd identify as most important:
Shadows and Splah (not very important but if just the check box to show them all or hide them all).
Conductor's view Pure white Baton or drumsticks Baton only Labels (just the one check box)
Show buttons and controls (Just the check box to show / hide them all in one go)
Blocks, parts strips etc. check box.
Check box to hide parts with no bouncing balls.
Horizontal Scale, and Vertical Scale.
Preset buttons for display from different directions, drum preset, conducting preset and standard preset.
Split display into sections of [...] parts each.
Possibly also add the step in by, and step across by fields from the More (twice) version of the window.
Bare bones tempo dial.
That's about it. Still quite a lot but less than half the number of controls in it at present.
Then if concentrate on the real essentials, maybe only half of those again:
Conductor's view Pure white Baton or drumsticks Baton only Labels (just the one check box) Check box to hide parts with no bouncing balls. The various preset buttons. Horizontal scale.
Probably in similar way could go through most of the windows and trim out at least half the controls in most of them, and very possibly three quarters of them. That might go a fair way towards making it more approachable.
Once you get to know what the most important controls in each window do - then it is much less intimidating, you have a framework about which to fit the less important controls in the window, then you can go to the More version to deal with any tweaks.
So anyway I'll give that a go.
Maybe just go through all the existing windows and do an extra "less" version with even fewer controls in them for each one.
Could do that quite quickly, as it is literally drag and drop at this stage for that sort of thing - you delete the controls, in a user interface editor, move them around where you want them and so on.
I'll give that a go and see what it looks like in the beta, and do an upload if it looks good.
Does that sound like the sort of thing that might help?
ON THE PRICES
The reason I have different price levels for different countries is to take account of the exchange rates between countries, and difference in average earnings, so something that costs perhaps half an hour of earnings for a professional in full time employment in the US might be the equivalent of several days of earnings in India.
So - since I have no material costs, can use a flexible price system like this.
If you feel you want to pay more you can. It's a purely voluntary thing that list. Doesn't do any checks of your ip address or anything like that. Just choose whatever you feel is an appropriate amount to pay for it and you can get it at that price.
I used to do it so users who are eligible for a discount had to contact me personally, and I sent them a coupon. But that was quite a cumbersome system when I began to get a fair number of users asking for discounts. Later I had a system with the coupons just published on the web site so users didn't need to ask me for them. But then I found another way to do it, which lets you just select the price from a drop list. It also lets me offer higher discounts as well since the payments are handled by PayPal which has quite a low % and minimum transaction charge.
So just done it like this. Experimentally for now, if it causes problems I can change to another system, but I've found it works okay so far. I was a bit concerned at first that maybe lots of people might abuse it and get discounts they aren't entitled to - but if anything its the opposite. So if it continues like that then this is a far simpler way to do it all round for everyone.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to robert_inventor)
Thanks for your honest answer! You are to good to keep in account all the persons in the world. I'll see what it'll do for me
About the app, my suggestion would be to start from buttom-up again, instead of working your way down, it'll probably saves you a lot of time also. (And it is always good to review your programlines again )
Okay I may try something more radical later on. Maybe based on the idea of making the 3D window central to the program.
Meanwhile, here is the new version of the 3D Bouncing Balls Visuals window so you can see where I'm going right now - it is a sort of bottom up approach, but not so radical, applied to just a single window at a time:
This is just an idea in the beta at the moment. But so far I am quite pleased with it so may include it in the release.
All the existing tweaks are still available in the More version of the window as usual.
What I've done is to focus on the main controls; the ones you use most often, and taken those as the basic building blocks for the window.
If you compare it with the current version of this window, it is much simpler and easier to take in on first sight.
It's just an example, but I can use the same approach for many of the other windows, especially large ones with lots of controls in them.
If not a way to solve the problem completely, I think it might help. I think of it like a way to uncover the underlying structure of the program.
I think it becomes less complex seeming, as you get to know where everything is. So I think of this as a way of making it easier for a newbie to get over the initial learning curve by simplifying the individual windows.
To help with this, it might be interesting to ask users - Which of the BM Pro windows do you find MOST CONFUSING? Those would be good ones for me to simplify in this way.
Also to ask, can you name some things which were hard to figure out how to do? Again I could then see if I can find out what in the interface makes it confusing.
Surprisingly often it is something really simple, like using a confusing word to label something, so user doesn't realise what it does right away.
Things like that. Maybe I'll do a questionaire like that and see if I can get some feedback on particular issues to help improve the program.
Is there any particular thing you yourself found confusing, and hard to figure out how to do? Or any window that seems particularly confusing?
So - for now I think it is a matter of improving individual windows in this way, one at a time - or if I want to be more radical, also change the layout of the main window - e.g. based on 3D window.
I can try something much more radical when I work on the more minimalist version for mobile devices. Writing a new progarm from scratch is a good opportunity to try out new ideas.
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Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to robert_inventor)
I have bought expensive cameras and cars with less information than you make available on your website. I sold $31m of software to a client this year, with less information.
This is way over the top... to the point of being a tad scary. It looks like an astronomy program from 1995.
I recommend that you get a UI designer for your phone version, it's a whole new world.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Escribano)
Okay, thanks. Not sure what to do about it but good to get the feedback about the website.
Thanks for the recommendation for the mobile devices type UI. Doesn't really surprise me, often simple looking interfaces are harder to do than complicated looking interfaces.
Might well do that if the business takes off enough. Not making anything like enough to employ someone else for it at present, but the way things are going right now, it may be a possibility.
Or, just do the best I can. With all its flaws, the program still is used by many people, and the website works after a fashion, so if you can't quite see how to do a radical overhaul of the whole thing, you can still improve it in small ways while you think about how you could do some more major overhaul. In same way I can just do the best I can with a mobile app, and learn from my mistakes as I go.
It does help to hear honest opinons like this about the website and program and thanks for sharing your thoughts. And please anyone else commenting, please feel free to say things as you see them in the same way.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano I sold $31m of software to a client this year, with less information.
This can be interpreted very differently. Btw i really like the fact that you can start and stop the music in every window! Its something that several thousands of dollars expensive audio editing programs, with i dont know how many programers and designers involved, dont understand to offer.
RE: What is Your Weapon of Choice: M... (in reply to Lucerom)
quote:
With a few modifications it should be possible to create a wooden hardware metronome....
Nice.
Just need a bouncing ball somewhere in the mechanism to keep time - or several of them for polyrhythms, probably counter balanced so they bounce more slowly under gravity than normal bouncing balls (a bit like the way that the pendulum in a metronome is counter balanced to swing more slowly than a normal pendulum of the same size, not quite the same).
I can see it working. Basically - like a swing with two children on it, one heavier than the other, and heavier child raises his or her legs so the swing can hit the ground. The heavier child then will bounce, but much more slowly than one would normally under gravity.
So - then could use different positions for the counter balance weight depending on the number of beats per measure for the bounce, or some way to regulate the height of each bounce.
Indeed, doesn't seem beyond the ingenuity of a genius like the clock maker that made those clocks :-). Not my forte, alas, wouldn't know where to start with a practical complex mechanical design like that.
Anyway enjoyed the link and had a look at his other clocks and mechanical devices too, fascinating mechanisms, thanks for sharing.
quote:
Btw i really like the fact that you can start and stop the music in every window! Its something that several thousands of dollars expensive audio editing programs, with i dont know how many programers and designers involved, dont understand to offer.
Great, glad you like that feature. Was asked for this by a very keen user (of Tune Smithy which this program is derived from), and it was only after I did it that I realised why it was so useful.
quote:
Honestly...this is a work of Computer Art... Astonishing!
Glad you like it. A bit embarrassed actually, though not in a bad way
Anyway hope is it can be both general purpose and also suitable for specialists. I did wonder about charging a higher price for it, and could think about increasing the price a bit especially if I can sort out over complexity of the UI.
But when I look at other metronomes they are all about the same price, software ones anyway. Hardware ones can cost much more, and you get people saying things like they are looking for a metronome to do some specialised thing - and willing to pay up to $200 for it - but for hardware not for software.
Not sure how many people would buy it at a higher price, just not used to paying extra for a high end software metronome and after all doesn't have the portability of a hardware metronome (not yet anyway).
But - may experiment at some point with a slightly higher price point and see what happens.
Yes, I did what I could to make it aesthetically pleasing. After all musicians are going to spend hours in front of it, so may as well make it as pleasant and enjoyable to look at as I possibly can.
I do live in Britain actually, and maybe some of the artistic talent of my relatives has rubbed off on me . My neice Anna King won a major award here, the Jolomo award, Scottish equivalent of the Turner prize. Can't claim the same artistic background myself, would be at a loss with a paint brush, though did do a bit as an amateur painter, long ago, and a bit of sketching, enough maybe to help develop an artistic eye to help with the 3D graphics design.
BTW just fixed all the bugs. Now going through the various windows making smaller versions of each with fewer controls in them. Looking good so far. I think it will be hard to tell how effective (or not) this is going to be until you can actually try it out, but I am quite hopeful it will help. I already find it helpful myself, just a bit easier and quicker to find things even when you know where they are, like saves a second or two only but if you do that task many times, makes a difference, even when you know the software well.
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