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por medio

 

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009
 

Zorongo? 
WHAT is Zorongo? I have heard the name for ages but never really been interested. My cantaor wants to do it and it apparently goes like Buleria but alternate between fast and slow.

If anyone can point me to a good youtube video that'll be greatly appreciated. Lots of Zorongos when I do search but none so far that sounds like above.

Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2010 20:18:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
it is a song by Garcia lorca. The rhythmical part is sort of like buleria, but there is the main poem that is sort of freely interpreted, but it all works in 3/4 if you must meter it out.



I have experienced many dancers use it as an intro for a siguiriya, oddly.

The poem says, the moon is a little bit of nothing, the flowers have no value, the only thing that matters are your arms when at night they embrace me....

or something like that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2010 20:34:46
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
That's instantly recognisable, but I never knew that wsa Zorongo!

Great clip from the movie - lol that skirt would stand up on its own, there are so many stiff flounces

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2010 1:13:19
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
I'm sure you are aware that Sabicas recorded one -- Paco Pena also re-recorded the same composition in a cd homage to Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, and others. Pena also plays it in his current touring concert (a version of "A Compas!") although he doesn't credit Sabicas. All solo guitar, though. No cante.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2010 5:14:46
 
Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
Theres a great Zorongo by Antonio Hidalgo that our group does.

As my teacher describes it, its a Solea por Bulerias that stays mostly on the compás strong beats, avoiding syncopation.

It does require the traditional vocal melodic material to really be a Zorongo.
In the above mentioned Marisol video, this specific material can be heard from 0:52 to 1:12
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2010 10:04:07
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Hi Ricardo,

So is "El Vito" by PdL Zorongo? I've always wondered.

The video you posted I've heard done by various troupes.

To me it always sounded like Bulerias with the 12 and 3 beats heavily accented and a pause for a kind Caña-like section.

You used to hear it a lot more years ago than now.

I've always liked it.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2010 10:36:38
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
Ricardo is right about the rhythmical part being like Bulerias. Many years ago Vicente Gomez taught me a falseta for Bulerias that is almost verbatim melodically for the rhythmical section. I also have several records where Carlos Montoya plays the identical melody as a Bulerias falseta.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2010 13:20:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

So is "El Vito" by PdL Zorongo? I've always wondered.


No. But also composition of Lorca, and not really flamenco. His take on bulerias or the flamenco 3 beat compas once again. Also Lorca composed sevillanas which are kind a weird too. Like Falla, Rodrigo, Albeniz, Granados etc, Lorca was inspired by flamenco and did his interpretations of the compas on the piano, but it is really classical music. Conversely you have pieces like Impetu by escudero, or Moraito's and Nuñez Vals buleria type compositions which use arpegios to evoke a spanish classical vibe, but are honestly based on a more fundamental and true flamenco compas base.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2010 0:45:39
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
If you want more details, ask Jason.
Zorongo is his favourite Palo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2010 3:46:09
 
por medio

 

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to Arash) 
Thanks guys for your help!

I'll now have to learn... and make it sound a wee bit modern to suit my taste a little more
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2010 11:59:43
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

composition of Lorca


i thought all those Lorca songs Zorongo, Anda Jaleo, Los Cuatros Muleros, El Vito, La Tarara, Sevillanas Del Siglo XVIII etc. etc. were old Andaluz folk songs, which Lorca collected (much as other folk music has been "collected" eg. Cecil Sharp collected English and Appalachian folk songs), and wrote down, not compositions by Lorca. I understood that he made and recorded his own arrangements of the songs, but maybe that's what you meant by "composition"?


quote:

His take on bulerias or the flamenco 3 beat compas


i have often wondered about the relationship between these (presumably but not necessarily old) folksongs, and flamenco compas - are the songs older and flamenco compas has evolved by taking the rhythms of the songs and using them as a base for improvising and creating flamenco forms, or are the compas forms older and these are just set folksongs that use the same rhythms. Several of the songs have a loose hemeola 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 rhythm; zorongo, el vito, anda jaleo



quote:

it is really classical music


i don't think these folksongs were originally classical music, i think they were originally folksongs, but as Lorca wrote them down and recorded them etc. they became available to classical musicians and often performed by classical musicians.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2010 12:10:37
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

were old Andaluz folk songs, which Lorca collected (much as other folk music has been "collected" eg. Cecil Sharp collected English and Appalachian folk songs), and wrote down, not compositions by Lorca.


Actually that makes more sense to me as I never knew Lorca was a composer of music, but more of a writer/poet in Andalucian culture?

Kate studied Lorca, so maybe she can shed more light on this?

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2010 12:28:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

i don't think these folksongs were originally classical music,


fair enough, but I was not talking about that. The versions interpreted by flamencos are direct from Lorca's "Obra completa" you can find in the library. It has poems plays, and music. I consider music in that form, preserved on paper for piano and interpreted rather then evolving or allowing for some improv or creativity within the form, as "classical" music. And his interpretation of the compas, I suspect is probably an interpretation just like Albeniz. Regardless if the origins were from folk music, the final versions are "classical" to me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2010 5:28:04
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

The versions interpreted by flamencos are direct from Lorca's "Obra completa" you can find in the library..... I consider music in that form, preserved on paper for piano and interpreted rather then evolving or allowing for some improv or creativity within the form, as "classical" music.


agreed, especially when interpreted in that fixed way by classical musicians

i think the whole area of folk music where the tradition is broken and then revived from written sources is kind of fuzzy - is it then "folk" "traditional" "classical" whatever?

i didn't know that flamencos were interpreting those songs from written sources, i assumed they probably got them by ear from the lp he recorded (i think with La Argentina)

and in some cases the songs are interpreted in a different palo from the original (eg. zorongo as tangos instead of bulerias by Carmen Linares) so they are not always interpreted by flamencos in a fixed "classical" way - i don't think it's clear cut, like i said, kind of fuzzy....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2010 14:11:00
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
Zorongo was a popular dance in the 18th and beginning 19th century. La Argentinita had it in her repertoire in 1935.
The cante is composed of a succession of four eight-syllabic verses, and according to one source, sung to a slow tangos compas.
Lorca's version re-popularized it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2010 7:29:44
 
val

 

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[Deleted] 
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 11:51:44
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2010 8:56:13
 
por medio

 

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to val) 
Yeah that was a very cool track Val. Pity the sample is short. I think I'll alternate the slow cante with either Buleria or Fandango-feel breaks.

My cantaor knows all these Lorca songs - I know none. Does anyone know a good place to start? To listen to some genuine traditional interpretations?


Thanks again all.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2010 14:23:51
 
russelldinho

Posts: 22
Joined: Nov. 11 2008
From: In-Gur-Land

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to por medio) 
this might come in handy for an idea?

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2010 2:10:46
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Zorongo? (in reply to edguerin) 
quote:

Zorongo was a popular dance in the 18th and beginning 19th century.....
Lorca's version re-popularized it.


Hi Ed, Thanks for that info, interesting. Do you know if all the contemporary versions are based on Lorca's written/recorded arrangement, or if it has survived in oral tradition separate to that?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2010 5:16:38
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