RE: alternatives to cypress

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estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

Lots of early American parlor guitars are made of Oak and Ash. Late 19th century. They are fairly light weight if the builder kept the ribs a back thin. Oak and Ash are so unexotic, that that might be a drawback. I can't help but think they may be heavier, but I don't think they will sound "pingy" or glassy like rosewoods. So even if they are heavy they may still sound more flamenco. The Oak guitars I have seen sounded more like Mahogany than rosewood, at least to me. I'm willing to think that density and weight are not the only factors which contribute to tone. Some wood just feels "elastic" for lack of a better way to put it; like it has give and that kind of wood sounds different than wood which does not feel elastic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 20:33:53

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

+10 tag team points!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 21:25:45

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

There is one way to find out. We should make one out of Oak. I also vote for Claro Walnut which is close to Cypress the way it feels between your fingers.

Of course I don't do the kind of wood testing that some of the more scientific builders do. For example it caused a mini melt down a couple of years back then Alan Carruth said in his testing on Osage Orange he found it had almost the exact same properties as Brazilian Rosewood. The wood dealers with stashes of Osage Orange were getting lots of phone calls and emails.

I even bought some Osage Orange and set out to make a guitar with it, but I did what John described earlier. I cracked a rib after bending it. I was twisting it to see if it would shatter and it did shatter, duh. I never got back into that project, but I have a back and one bent rib of Osage Orange. Every shop should and does have these abandoned experiments laying about.

Only other problem with Osage Orange is that it's orange, like really,really orange. And it's totally upsetting to me because when I look at it languishing on the shelf I can't decide whether it's a desirable kind if orange like an old Orange juice colored VW bug or conceptually odd orange, like Clockwork Orange, in a twisted but interesting kind of way with Malcolm McDowell waiting to pounce. Or if it's a horrific orange as if Dolly the Sheep and a Conde' blanca were hybridized together to make a tree with naturally florescent orange wood. That is my worst nightmare.

You feel my pain?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 23:30:43

tirofori

Posts: 4
Joined: Sep. 12 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to jshelton5040)

yew is used for lutes, as a substitute for maple, with good results. I have never tried it myself but it would be worth the experiment to use it on a flamenco guitar because, like lutes, flamencos are not build for sustain but for attack.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2010 23:34:24

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to tirofori)

Yew would be really nice. But the back and the sides would have to be made in multiple pieces because large straight trunks on a Yew tree are super difficult to find.

Lutes are made for sustain though, just a different kind and duration of sustain.

Yew is a fascinating wood with a very interesting history in its uses by humans. It runs the gamut of being the superior wood of choice for the English long bow to modern times when the bark of the Yew tree was found to yield the key chemical compound to make a drug for the treatment of breast cancer.

Prior to the discovery of a laboratory synthesis of this compound, Yew trees were preyed upon by poachers who stripped the bark from yew and sold it to pharmacutical companies on the black market. No joke. That happened not too long ago and the Yew tree populations in Canada and the US suffered. When the bark was stripped from those trees they died without propagating new trees.

As a consequence Yew has become scarce and it was never really a big or common tree to begin with. One of the reasons it became a favored wood for lutes in the late Renaissance is because for the military the gun became the weapon of choice over the bow, for obvious reasons. When a full scale transition from bow to gun happened it rendered the warehouses full of yew bow blanks obsolete. The wood was up for grabs to whomever could best make use of it and in stepped the various wood workers including the lute makers, to utilize it.

Yew I have no doubt would make a fine blanca, but where to get a piece 8" wide with no defects, I have not a clue. If someone wants a five piece back and ribs with an ebony spacer dividing two long strips glued edge to edge to get the width for ribs....I can set you up with a Yew guitar. Yew is not a readily sustainable choice as it's far less common than Cypress. Cypress is however, a good substitute for Yew.

Taxol: read all about it- http://breastcancer.about.com/od/treatments/a/taxol_descrip.htm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 0:00:10

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

When I was young we walked forty miles through snow to work with our tool bags and saws.

Up hill both ways?

I love Yew. Jesus loves Yew. Oh but Yew don't know how it feeeels...to love somebody...the way I. Love. Yew

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 4:25:43

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

if i were to replace cypress with a wood that has similar qualities it would be yellow poplar otherwise known as tulipwood (not to be confused with the tulip rosewood) the density of yellow poplar is almost identical to cypress and the color and streaks has many similiarities to cypress. yellow poplar bends and glues easily so there no issue there. tulipwood is easy to get and is not endangered of becoming rare and expensive.

as to the sound, that i could not tell you as i have not played a guitar built with this wood.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 7:06:19

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I love Yew. Jesus loves Yew. Oh but Yew don't know how it feeeels...to love somebody...the way I. Love. Yew

_________________

* slaps palm to forehead*

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 7:25:59

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Only other problem with Osage Orange is that it's orange, like really,really orange. And it's totally upsetting to me because when I look at it languishing on the shelf I can't decide whether it's a desirable kind if orange like an old Orange juice colored VW bug or conceptually odd orange, like Clockwork Orange, in a twisted but interesting kind of way with Malcolm McDowell waiting to pounce. Or if it's a horrific orange as if Dolly the Sheep and a Conde' blanca were hybridized together to make a tree with naturally florescent orange wood. That is my worst nightmare.

You feel my pain?

The Osage I have seen was more of a Canary yellow when fresh cut. It actually is a very good Brazilian rosewood substitute in terms of it's acoustic properties. I remember a set years ago that Alan Carruth had where the cross grain stiffness was actually the same as the longitudinal stiffness.

As distressing as the color is, it actually will oxidize down to a nice deep brown, with enough time. When I began building guitars I became familiar with an old woodworker/wood collector. I cleaned him out of what he had left in Brazilian rosewood, Mahogany, Spanish Cedar etc.... Really killer old, old wood. His place was a shack that was filthy and stacked with all sorts of wood. One day I found a plank that was about 8 feet long by 3 or 4 feet wide and from the color it looked like Brazilian. I almost fainted and told Stu I had to have it. He says sure and then looks more closely and announces that its Bodark (aka Osage Orange) He made me help him hoist the monster onto his Crescent resaw and peeled off an inch off the end. The true color was a vivid and obnoxious bright yellow with a sickly greenish cast to it. I could have cried. Still do thinking about it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 8:02:17

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

aaron--would not a uv preserative keep the wood from turning brown? by the way, i am in the process of trying to land back in boston...i will keep you posted. if the job thing does not work out can you a lackey to clean up the shop? just kidding on the lackey part.

by the way, have you any experience with tulipwood poplar. tons of that stuff to be had.

so osage orange is really orange...hmmm, the conde boys might be interested in using that wood. using that wood would save the luthier a trip to the home depot for a can of safety orange spray paint.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 8:56:11

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to keith)

Mexican Cypress seems to serve as the default alternative to any scarcity of Cypress

cheers

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 9:51:30

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to gj Michelob)

gj--yes it has but one day that will become scarce and...... hey you still interested in the "pink lady'?

i wonder if there such a thing as "royal " mexican cypress. maybe it is the last cypress tree touched by our lady of guadalupe?

it would be interesting to see woods like poplar for sides and back and willow for necks. willow is light and strong--it once was used to make peg legs and such. of course there is the old stand by--maple.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 11:51:39

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to keith)

Another wood that shows promise is Tamarack. It has nice color, weight and texture very similar to cypress. I've been meaning to get some when I visit my friends in Eastern Oregon but always seem to forget. Most common use for it is firewood. It's an usual tree in that it's one of the few deciduous conifers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 12:06:50

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

Osage Orange is so damn orange it's almost juicy. I commissioned this naranja a while back, and it was coming out purty durn orange even before any finish went on. Sadly I never saw it completed, but whateva. Between the orange bod and the bear-claw top, I'll bet this specimen is quite the looker.

If I ever commission again, 99% chance I'll go with Osage Orange again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 12:38:06

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to estebanana)

Chinese newspapers are in abundance. why not use them?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 12:56:09

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: alternatives to cypress (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

As distressing as the color is, it actually will oxidize down to a nice deep brown, with enough time. When I began building guitars I became familiar with an old woodworker/wood collector. I cleaned him out of what he had left in Brazilian rosewood, Mahogany, Spanish Cedar etc.... Really killer old, old wood. His place was a shack that was filthy and stacked with all sorts of wood. One day I found a plank that was about 8 feet long by 3 or 4 feet wide and from the color it looked like Brazilian. I almost fainted and told Stu I had to have it. He says sure and then looks more closely and announces that its Bodark (aka Osage Orange) He made me help him hoist the monster onto his Crescent resaw and peeled off an inch off the end. The true color was a vivid and obnoxious bright yellow with a sickly greenish cast to it. I could have cried. Still do thinking about it.

A friend an I were on a buying trip to a hardwood vendor in Portland and met up with a rather good looking young sales lady who was obviously just learning the lumber business. First she mentioned the lovely grain of mahogany and we both looked at each other and smiled then she suggested we take a look at the fresh stock of Oh sog gee oh rong gee (hard g sound on the gee). It took a couple of minutes before it dawned on us what she was saying. Neither of us had the heart to correct her but we had many chuckles afterwards.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2010 13:32:11