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Why can't I use a 4 finger ras all the time?
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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 RE: Why can't I use a 4 finger ras a... (in reply to Escribano)
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Simon,
I don't think it makes any difference as long as the timing is correct. One of the first things my teacher told me is that rasqueados and alzpua are very personal. That is to say, each person does them differently. The important thing is how they sound. He didn't teach me ras and up until now he hasn't said anything derogatory about mine.
I am practicing the ras that he seems to use more than any other: p (up), m (down), p (down). His fingers appear to be relaxed but he keeps the M and P at a fixed distance and all the action comes from twisting the wrist. He barely touches the strings most of the time (brushing the strings would be a good discription) and he can pop it in any place and it's always perfect. I've noticed that most of the guitarists in this area (Jerez) use this ras. You can do a super fast quadruplet or a long continuous ras with this technique. He also does the a,m,i, i (up) a lot and interchanges it with the other one. I'm not sure if he uses e,a,m,i, i (up), it's hard to tell by watching, I'll have to ask him. But these are the only two that I've seen him use. So it apparent that you don't need to learn a lot of different ones.
I hope this helps.
Phil
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Date Jul. 12 2003 1:18:41
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Why can't I use a 4 finger ras a... (in reply to Escribano)
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At my school, they use the a m i i quite often. Tino explained to me that using the five stroke compas makes it difficult to get an even sound in most palos, but that it´s good to use in Soleares. I think what he meant is that beats with 4 strikes in it sound more even, more regular. Actually you can easily see this in comparing flamenco and classical tremolo, the 4 beat classical sounds very linear while the 5 beat flamenco quite round and full. Perhaps in compas you want more discrete sounds.
It seems that Tino uses this amii for compas, such as in Alegrias (starting on 1) amii amii 3 amii amii 6 amii 8 and 10 11 12. Tino doesn´t use marote style ras very much, for his continuous ras he seems to favor iai, i up a down i down. Of course, as Tom said these are both personal and regional. These are as much Tino´s choices as anything Sevilla would represent, I believe. last night at the Festival at Moguer (where I saw Antonio Canales, and Chocolate accompanied by my teacher Eduardo Rebollar among others!) I noticed that each guitarist seems to have his own favorites. One guy Nino Jero or something, seemed to use Marote style ras for almost everything. He played really hard, and left lots of spaces in his compas, always coming in on weird beats and always hitting the accents and stops dead on! Very dynamic. He and his singer even played a rumba.
Another very useful ras is the ma down p up ras. This is powerful and can be put into triplets or even beats. Yes, it´s just up and down but it can be done very fast and I think just about every guitarist does it. Plus, it seems to me to be easy, you just have to practice it slow and relax and will come out pretty quick. Seems useful for accompanying dancers, especially when they start going fast.
Another point, is that there seems to be at least two different ways of playing the same ras. There´s the throw and the push. So you play a four stroke ras by flicking, marble style, your fingers are the string. You get a percussive sound, especially when you aim it at the bass strings. However you can also push. Sort of like laying the finger on the string and then pushing it through. That´s another sound, and this is how I have been practicing. It seems to make for a fuller, more lush and rich sound.
While I´m here, I´d also like to share some guitar student secrets. I have been hanging out with a bunch of guys who go to the Paco Pena school, I delight in getting inside information and insights about the master and his program. First thing, when you start for two months you can only play with your thumb. He tells you that for 2 months you must only play with the thumb, and then he shows you how. Supposedly you are supposed to push down and, as if you were trying to push the string into the soundhole! And with your thumb completely relaxed and free of any muscular activation, you use your forearm to push in. I am sure you will find this very interesting Ron. For 2 months you are supposed to do this.
Paco Pena always insists that you play with a very particular sound--his sound. And he insists you always play with a very powerful volume. Phillip, one of the students, says that it´s incredible how loud PP plays, that he has never heard anyone play like that, although PP is a small person. I am going to try to learn how to do the thumb thing, although using your arm to push your thumb sounds like a horrible transgression of the economy of motion principle, if it´s necessary at least I should learn a little of it.
And Finally, it seems that there is a secret to becoming an excellent guitar player--you have to practice! The consensus among my group is that you have to play 5 hours a day. This actually is more than my research, which has said that you have to work 4 hours a day for ten years, to become a virtuoso. And notice I said work, not play... there is a chasm of a difference between those two things.
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Date Jul. 13 2003 13:03:35
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Thomas Whiteley
Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area
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RE: Why can't I use a 4 finger ras a... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Michael;
Great post! You have brought up some interesting points. I wish I could get together with everyone in one room and discuss this as it is one of my favorite topics.
Quick outline of playing rasgueado variations:
1. Anchor the pulgar against the top of the guitar top or the sixth string or both.
2. Strike the finger tips towards the soundhole.
3. Strike the finger tips towards the bridge.
In looking at all the old flamenco movies I have ever seen, I have the impression that Sabicas used the indice, medio picado while others used pulgar only. Was Sabicas the first or one of the first flamenco guitarists to use I, M picado?
All Spaniards that I have met that play flamenco guitar seem to be 5’ 4” tall. They have small hands that are capable of stretching as far as mine can, and they have tremendous strength. That strength begins in the forearms. I have shaken hands with people like Sabicas, Carlos Montoya, Juan Serrano and Mariano Cordoba. All have (or had) very strong handshakes.
Some pianists I have shaken hands with give you the “dead fish” if you know what I mean.
About using the pulgar first and developing strength: that is what I was taught. I have black belts in judo and karate and the technique of using the forearm to obtain strength through the pulgar is much like what you learn in karate – the force begins behind and point of contact. But the secret is to relax and use the pulgar as an extension of the forearm and not force or tense the arm and hand, which can cause injury.
When I was playing professionally, after three hours of playing I began to feel as if I could begin to do anything I wanted – it was as if my hands were ready and I totally forgot the world. I would then begin to make progress.
I played an average of ten hours a day and then performed an additional one to two hours several days a week. I got to the point that I no longer used the term “practice” as I would just play and enjoy every minute.
I am a great believer in learning technique first and then learn how to play music – regardless of the instrument involved. I play several instruments as well as teach. There are so many ways to play and teach. I have never tried to make one of my students a little Thomas Whiteley. After all, I am 6’ 7” so the way I do things is not the same as the average person. I take into account the physical attributes of the student. I will teach “correct technique”, as well as any of the variations I am aware of, to get my point across to the student. It is up to the student to produce the correct sound.
One final thought that I have expressed previously on another forum. A major reason for so many different approaches to flamenco technique has to do with when flamenco guitar began to become popular. It was a time when there was little communications or media of any sort. People in Spain developed the techniques and were taught from father to son, or from a neighbor.
I found that Barbers in the early 1960’s in Spain would teach flamenco guitar for about 25 cents for one lesson. A haircut was 17 cents and most Spanish men had long hair before there were hippies. A bottle of vino tinto was 3 cents. Teaching guitar was not a bad idea.
Each family had its own techniques,. As well as each neighborhood, and area of the country. Remember the words from Juan Serrano, about the rasgueado he plays? His father taught him! I have not found anyone else performing that rasgueado unless Juan taught them!
Sabicas was from northern Spain and did not have access to flamenco guitarists as people did in the southern part of Spain. So it seems conceivable Sabicas did a number of things on his own as for what technique to use and how to develop it. Perhaps the isolation Sabicas had from the rest of Spain was a good thing as he brought so much to the rest of us to enjoy and learn.
I have at least one thing in common with Paco Pena. We were born the same year! 
_____________________________
Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
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Date Jul. 13 2003 16:05:02
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Guest
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RE: Why can't I use a 4 finger ras a... (in reply to Escribano)
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Thats right, how about a trplat with the usuall p,m,p, but with a golpe with the up stroke of, anyone use that?
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Date Jul. 13 2003 18:59:55
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Why can't I use a 4 finger ras a... (in reply to Escribano)
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Michael,
Great and informative post as usual! Keep 'em coming!
On the PP thumb bit.....
My own thumb tech is based on his..(I got a couple of free private lessons from him once when he was up in Edinburgh in the distant past).
The really "hard" thumb technique he uses (ie in the "badass" solo pugar stuff), he keeps the thumb rigid and rotates from the wrist.
In other stuff, like playing arpegio with thumb, he moves the thumb from the base, with no wrist rotation.
Remember, when playing really hard hitting pulgar stuff, an incredible amount of finesse is involved...not just brute force!
Always focus your attention on the edge of the thumbnail, for that's what produces the sound.
You can hit a nail into a block of wood with a hammer as hard as you like, but if you don't have the judgement to hit it absolutely square on...it will bend.
cheers Mike, looking forward to the next instalment!
Ron
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Date Jul. 13 2003 20:42:19
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Why can't I use a 4 finger ras a... (in reply to Escribano)
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More like a wet sponge, Phil. I have seen maybe 15 flamenco shows in the last month! And I have 2 hours of flamenco history, 4 hours of guitar class a day, as well as up to 5 hours of practice. My hands are so dead that my picado has become a flubbing disgrace, and I forget falsetas as soon as I learn them, like when I meet people and I forget their names before I have let go of their hands!
Anyways, I have a newsflash: previous reports to the contrary, Solea por bulerias and Bulerias por Solea are different! According to my flamenco history teacher, Solea por bulerias is a fast solea, that is, with the letra and melody of solea, while Bulerias por Solea is a slow bulerias, with letra and melody of bulerias. We are talking cante here. This directly contradicts, at least to my understanding, of what Eduardo Rebollar, my teacher told me. He claims that the two are exactly the same. And from what I understand of what he told me, there is a distinct melody for SB.
Now, who´s right, who´s wrong? A review of Sunday´s festival at Moguer (which I attended) said that Eduardo was the best guitarist of the night, accompanying Chocolate! Are we going to believe a history teacher or the best player at a festival? Well what I think is that academians will call something whatever they want... and they are right. That is how things will probably be remembered. But if the musicians speak of something a certain way amongst themselves, then they are right too. Each in his own mileau.
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Date Jul. 15 2003 13:17:22
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