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Gerardo Nunez injury?
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Grisha
Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
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 RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to HolyEvil)
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It is very sad. It's ironical, because here we have a man who worked his butt off all his life to get this crazy technique, and he was the best at it. I saw Gerardo twice, once with the dance company and another time near Granada with his trio. That concert made me quit the guitar for 3 days, and I was in my top shape. I wish Gerardo to get back 100% soon and scare me again and again. He seems to be a smart and determined man, so there are no impossibles. But if this thing is to stay, I wish instead of being depressed, Gerardo would simply shift his focus and put all his energy and love for music into something different. He is already teaching, and it's great and very admirable. But he could do more, like composing something very deep without the flashy bits, proving that flamenco is not all about fireworks. I think the young would really follow his lead if he succeeds in doing that. And he's got the wisdom and compositional skills for that. Or, he can accompany a bunch of singers in his own way. Lastly, he could compose for someone else.
Gerardo should not give up on doctors. There must be someone that can help. Trying chiropractor could prove beneficial. Or even doing some yoga. You never know what might help.
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Date May 16 2010 8:23:04
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to Grisha)
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Your post is interesting Grisha because it brings up the idea of keeping the fire burning, which is something that I think we all have to deal with sooner or later. In particular, though, it's interesting because I suppose that Gerardo is facing a very difficult situation. About 10 years ago, people were saying that his technique was actually better than Paco's, which seemed impossible at the time. From what little I've heard and seen of Gerardo, I'd have to say that he developed his technique to at least the same level as Paco's.
quote:
But he could do more, like composing something very deep without the flashy bits, proving that flamenco is not all about fireworks.
Have flamenco guitarists ever done that? My question is not rhetoric and I'd be interested in hearing your opinion if you've got the time. I think it's always been about flash, but I don't mean that in a bad way. It's always been about surprising people by developing technique or developing existing ideas (making them more complicated). There are stories about Paco de Lucena causing a big sensation at a café cantante in the 1800s because he won a guitar duel when he put a sock on his left hand! It's clear that Ramón Montoya, Sabicas and Niño Ricardo focused on the technical aspects of the guitar and it's the same story with Paco de Lucía and modern players (the Caño Roto school, for example). Again, I don't mean that in a bad way. The only point I want to make is that a technique-oriented guitarist probably wouldn't get much pleasure from focusing on tone, harmony, composition, etc.
quote:
Gerardo should not give up on doctors. There must be someone that can help. Trying chiropractor could prove beneficial. Or even doing some yoga. You never know what might help.
I agree 100% and wish him a speedy recovery.
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Date May 16 2010 23:14:56
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to NormanKliman)
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i think once you understand that flamenco is not so much about "compositions" (like in classical music), but more about vibe, tone and the special feeling (and therfore, of course also technique), then you also understand that there is no thing like a lack of compositional skills.
i mean in classical music, of course technique also matters, but let say 2 good classical guitarists play the same piece. you don't hear a lot of difference in tone of feeling of that piece. there is this one perfect technique which almost
all classical guitarists try to achieve. no? (i am not sure about this, just my observation, maybe classical guitarists see this completely different)
But 2 OK flamenco guitarists playing the same set of compas, can sound completely different with 2 completely different vibes.
Also little variations in a falseta can have a big effect on the vibe and so on the whole piece.
It is funny, sometimes when i watch some flamenco, i like the different compas sets etc. (without the actual falseta = composition) MORE than the falsetas=composition ! thats imo one of the important differences between flamenco and any other style of music.
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Date May 17 2010 2:30:24
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NormanKliman
The only point I want to make is that a technique-oriented guitarist probably wouldn't get much pleasure from focusing on tone, harmony, composition, etc.
Why does technique oriented playing automatically mean playing with less or no tone, harmony, composition etc? IMO you have made an important observation, that flamenco guitarrists have always been after some surprise (one guitarrist more, the other one a bit less), and that technique is a tool to achive that. But so is harmony, composition. Especially modern guitar has departed to reach for wider harmonies and more complex composition, like composing a long piece which doesnt follow the falseta1, compas1 (letra), falseta2, compas2 (letra), ... structure.
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Date May 17 2010 4:58:21
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to Arash)
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Arash, thanks, that's a nice gesture on your part. Your post is fine, I think the main problem is that I was imagining Gerardo trying to remain productive with very little technique. Maybe it was actually me who was misunderstanding Grisha, but his comments reminded me of something that you said in the Paco interview thread ("playing with fewer notes," etc.) In any case, the fact is that even at half-speed Gerardo's technique is still at an extremely high level. So now that I think about it, the point I was trying to make doesn't really apply to this case.
Sorry for the thread hijacking HolyEvil, but what I wanted to say is that flamenco has nearly always been about technique, virtuosity, speed, high volume, etc. I mentioned some names of technique-oriented guitarists upthread but I should have included a few other names to make it clear that I am not criticizing virtuosity. For example, Manuel Morao is considered today to be very traditional and old school, but he took the falsetas that he learned when he was young and he made them more complicated. He said in an interview that his contribution to the guitar is that he added a lot of rhythmic counterpoint (compare his playing to Javier Molina's four recordings to see the difference). Another example is Juan Habichuela, who has been considered for a long time to be the best cante accompanist around although he's got loads of technique and many convoluted falsetas. Anyway, Manolo Sanlúcar and others have been working with harmony and composition for a long time, but always in conjunction with highly developed technique, and I was imagining Gerardo trying to continue with practically no technique, which obviously isn't the case. In the "aluminum guitar" video that you posted, from the way he holds his index it looks like it's after the accident, and his thumb is still unbelievably fast and precise.
EDIT: Forgot to add this.
quote:
you understand more about flamenco than me for sure.
Maybe about some things, but I know for a fact that you and others know other things that I don't know. That's why I like this forum.
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Date May 18 2010 1:54:46
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to NormanKliman)
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Yes, i understand better now what you mean Norman.
First of all actually, when solely talking about technique (and specially the effectivity), i also think that Gerardo got to a level where he was "better" than Paco. And with better, i mean as a teacher!
Gerardo's way of playing and his technique was something which seamed to me the best available resource to copy for all kinds of student anatomies and amounts of energy (and most importantly the most "economic" technique, i don't know how to describe it better). His movements (in all his techniques) were exactly propotioned or "dosed" to get the desired result (not too much , so that some energy would be waisted, and not too little so that something would lack!). It was the perfect technique to be teached to students, up to that date (IMO). Don't anybody please misunderstand me. Pacos technique is as good as Gerardos. I am just talking about me (or maybe a lot of other people) want to learn by watching and copying.
Regarding the other points mentioned: i think we have to distinguish a little bit.
My example of me like to see Paco "playing with fewer notes" was followed by "playing each note with a lot of maturity or feeling or experience" or something like that. And another thing which should be considered is simply Paco's age . Or when i said "less speed", doesn't necessarily mean with "less" technique.
To make myself more clear maybe: take Diego del Morao for instance. Or your example Moraito.
You don't often see long scales of speed picado or super fast playing etc. from these players, but more like emphasis on each note with a lot of feeling, power, variations, etc. But that doesn't necessarily mean "less" technique. It MIGHT seam easier (and with
less technique), but if you try to play THEIR way, you soon realize that its DAMN hard and needs as much as practice, like to play a super fast picado run. I am sure you already know that. So i guess we maybe both mean the same thing, but maybe were misunderstood a little?
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Date May 18 2010 2:41:43
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NormanKliman
You guys are misunderstanding me. I never said there's a lack of composition, harmony or anything in flamenco. Maybe the wording of my last post made you think differently.
I just said "playing with less or no tone, harmony, composition etc" (your words), not lack of. What does "technique oriented" mean else than being *more* focused on that as on other fields like the ones i was quoting from your post? It is clear that you arent critisizing, since you say that all flamenco guitarrists have been always after some "flash" (as opposed to other music/guitar styles i assume). The only thing i said or disagreed with, is that there are also other elements which the modernists use, especially harmony, composition, which was not that apparent back in the days. Just wanted to make this clear, it adds nothing new to the debate, especially not to the Nunez topic.
quote:
but if you try to play THEIR way, you soon realize that its DAMN hard and needs as much as practice, like to play a super fast picado run.
It certainly is not easy, but i dont think that picado skills and "playing a Morao falseta"-skills are equal. With picado there is just a physical limit for everyone, and it probably requires an insane, i repeat, insane amount of practice to come close to it. If this limit is at 150, 200 or 250 bpm, you cant influence that. I dont think that you can achieve any speed with practice. There is just a limit. But if somebody says that is wrong, then this would make me more happy coz that means i could probably be faster than i am now.
My experience after 7 yrs is: In the end it boils down to technique, technique, technique. A bad guitarrist/performance is in 9 of 10 cases caused by not enough technique IMO and not feeling, or anything else. And i say this as someone who has beginner/intermediate technique!!! And for sure i would say i am a bad guitarrist  
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Date May 18 2010 3:59:52
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Gerardo Nunez injury? (in reply to XXX)
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Okay, it looks like we agree in the end, thanks. I'm glad nobody felt like they had to have the last word.
Just for the record though:
quote:
Or your example Moraito.
I meant Manuel Morao, the uncle of Moraíto.
quote:
"playing with less or no tone, harmony, composition etc" (your words)
My words were "a technique-oriented guitarist probably wouldn't get much pleasure from focusing on tone, harmony, composition, etc." I thought his injury was so bad that his technique was limited to average good playing, and now he could only focus on tone, harmony, etc. But I see in the video that he's still extraordinary, so it was my mistake.
As Arash pointed out, Gerardo is really efficient. I wonder if that has anything to do with Manolo Sanlúcar. Anyone know if there's a connection?
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Date May 18 2010 6:17:08
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