German vs European Spruce

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a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

German vs European Spruce

I've been told that German Spruce has a sharper, clearer, more flamenco sound than European spruce. I didn't even know there was a difference. Is there one?

Tony Arnold

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2010 16:27:00

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Germany is actually in Europe

Really though I think (from my limited knowledge) that basically wood is wood and and the difference between one piece and another from the same species can be greater than two other pieces that are different species. I've seen stiff, heavy cedar that would probably perform like spruce and the other way around. Basically what seems to matter is density and stiffness.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2010 18:57:51

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Germany is actually in Europe

Nope its in the USA (towns in GA, IN, PA, TX) or on the moon (a crater) ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2010 23:05:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

German spruce is a european spruce growing in Germany. Austrian spruce is a similar tree growing 50 meters away in Austria. And so on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2010 0:14:32

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

Man..... you dont know where Germany, the center of the world is? Morons!

hehe Europe is actually not a country.. you know?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2010 1:24:15

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

believe it or not, german spruce, aka, norweign spruce, aka, european spruce, aka, picea albeis (i hope i spelled it correctly) grows in the united states so we can add another country/continent to this mix.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2010 5:34:50

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Germany is actually in Europe

Yeah, yeah . . . I've had that figured out at least since I was 40 years old.

And Spanish cypress is the same as European cypress.

You know what I mean: Is there a difference due to altitude of habitat or annual temperature or some other factor that affects growth?

I'm looking for a serious answer here . . .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2010 12:04:37

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

I was serious...I think it all depends on the properties of the specific piece of wood. I'm building a blanca with German Spruce right now, my first build was Italian. The German is very stiff, pretty light, and totally straight grained, with more even spacing than most other European I've seen. I'll let you know how it turns out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2010 16:52:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

German spruce soundboardscomes in all qualities, from horrible to fantastic. Depending on where it lived and who cut it.
So goes with all other kinds of spruce.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2010 0:29:57

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

and of course we should not forget the time of the lunar cycle the wood was cut, how many times the woodchopper danced around the tree and whether he used the same axe that he felled the last royal spanish cypress tree at the alhambra.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 5:58:19

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

I acually believe in that lunar cycles influence the quality of your soundboard. Look at the power that the sun and moon has on the ocean. The strongest tide in the world is 16meters up and down 2 times a day!!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 23:36:21

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
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From: Marbella

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to keith)

quote:

believe it or not, german spruce.......aka, picea albeis.....grows in the united states

I am pretty sure that they have German shepherds in the U.S. too!

The German spruce is a tree type also known as European or Norwegian spruce.....and I think its country of origin is Norway. German spruce is presumably picea albeis grown in Germany....but its not a seperate species of Spruce. Its not native to the States but it does grow there. The Norwegian people gave the Norway spruce as a token of appreciation of
friendship during the World War II. Spruce is one of the tallest and fastest growing trees and needs a climate with at least 20" of rainfall per year to thrive. It grows slower at less than this amount of rainfall which makes the grain closer.

I'm guessing that this could make spruce grown in Germany have a closer grain than spruce grown in Norway for example (although I'm not an expert on annual Norwegian rainfall). Very wet climates (like Washington state for example) would produce very large fast growing trees with a wider grain that may not be as suitable for instrument making.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 0:27:50

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Spruce is one of the tallest and fastest growing trees and needs a climate with at least 20" of rainfall per year to thrive. It grows slower at less than this amount of rainfall which makes the grain closer.

I'm guessing that this could make spruce grown in Germany have a closer grain than spruce grown in Norway for example (although I'm not an expert on annual Norwegian rainfall). Very wet climates (like Washington state for example) would produce very large fast growing trees with a wider grain that may not be as suitable for instrument making.

Hee Pimientito,
do you also know what influence it has on the cross-grain?
I "always" thought that cross-grain is more important than grain-width, at least thats what I am told, and made sence to me, because to vibrations need to transfered over the soundboard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 0:43:17

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito
Very wet climates (like Washington state for example) would produce very large fast growing trees with a wider grain that may not be as suitable for instrument making.

True, but you left out the other important determinate of tree ring size which is altitude. High altitude results in short summers and tight grain.

The only spruce varieties common to NW United States that I'm aware of are Sitka spruce which grows west of the Cascades Mts. and Engelmann spruce which grows east of the Cascades. The Cascades form a barrier to rainfall leaving eastern Washington and Oregon relatively dry. It's only the area lying west of the Cascades that gets a lot of rain. Where I live near the coast of Oregon would best be described as a rainforest.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 7:33:41

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

High altitude results in short summers and tight grain.

Do you mean altitude or latitude? The altitude affects oxygen content of the air and rainfall, not length of summer.

As far as I cound find out there are around 35 species of spruce worldwide. Nine of those species are found in The U.S.

Seven species are indiginous ( red spruce, white spruce, Blue colorado or blue, sitka Spruce, Brewers Spruce, Englemann Spruce and Black spruce) and two (the Siberian and Norweigan) which have been introduced in the U.S. to help forestries. Most other species of spruce come from Asia. The sitka, Red, white and Engelmann are also large trees and useful for timber. The Black spruce wouldn't even make a guitar neck and the brewers spruce is ornamental.
I dont know how it works when you buy timber in the U.S. but it seems to me that any of about 5 varieties of large spruce could be sold under the general label of Spruce...and that will account for a fair degree of variation.

In Europe we tend to grow Norweigan or Alpine spruce for timber so I think there will be less variation, especially if you know what country it is being grown in.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 8:51:07

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to kozz)

quote:

do you also know what influence it has on the cross-grain?

Sorry - I dont know the factors that influence cross grain

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 8:54:44

jshelton5040

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RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

quote:

High altitude results in short summers and tight grain.

Do you mean altitude or latitude? The altitude affects oxygen content of the air and rainfall, not length of summer.

As far as I cound find out there are around 35 species of spruce worldwide. Nine of those species are found in The U.S.

I meant altitude. Freezing temperatures shorten the seasons but soil has an effect as well since there are fewer nutrients in high mountain soils. In the high mountains it's not uncommon to have freezing temperatures and snow all the way into July. I remember pitching a tent in snow in the Willowa Mts. in eastern Oregon in mid July. That was at 6000 feet and the trees were all stunted. I was much younger and more foolish then.:D]

I was aware that there a several species of spruce in the US. I have a couple of Blue spruce growning in front of my house. I was thinking mainly of tonewoods which normally includes sitka, engelmann and adirondack (red spruce?).

Any idea what is meant by "cross grain" in the subsequent post.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 10:00:21

jstelzer

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Joined: Dec. 14 2008

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

How about DNA as another factor?
Last year sitting in our hunting camp having a couple of beers .. my hunting buddy pointed to a western red cedar tree with a split top. He asked: what do you think caused that, snow load breaking the top or DNA? Split tops caused by snow loads in fir trees in that area are common. I my guess was 'snow load'. He then pointed another smaller cedar tree about 30' away from the first. The other tree had a split top and foliage that was identical to the first .. just a younger tree. I changed my answer to DNA.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 13:16:07

Anders Eliasson

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RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

The German spruce (from germany) Is growing mainly on the northern slopes of the Alps. This makes the whole climate a lot colder and less sunny than the southern slopes.
Mountains always have loads of microclimates. You can find other areas in the alps with a microclimate close to the one, where you find the german spruce.

So, its area, and not the country. A Spruce tree from Hamburg is not what we are dealing with. We are talking about the Alps in Germany when we are talking about German spruce.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2010 23:57:07

a_arnold

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RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

The latest issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine (March 1020) has an article on all the different top woods. Various species of spruce, cedar, fir, etc.

Apparently when European spruce first began to be used for instruments, it came from Germany -- just by historical accident, so it came to be called German spruce by luthiers. But it's all the same species and it grows over most of Europe. The optimum closeness of grain is important, but a matter of debate, but the important sound differences in spruce seem to depend more on on stiffness than geographic place of origin.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2010 14:58:05

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: German vs European Spruce (in reply to a_arnold)

Those darn trees refuse to acknowledge political boundaries. And even if they did, some of those trees are old enough to have been in different countries. Slovenian spruce may have been Yugoslavian, Italian--Austro-Hungarian, etc...

Man, those trees need to get it together, and read a political atlas once in a while ;)

I agree with previous comments, location, micro climate, and specific tree genetics are far more important the the "country of origin"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2010 15:42:15