Tientos

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Tientos

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Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

Tientos

Can enyone explain in the time signature of tientos how to interpret this?

12(4)
8 (4)

What exactely is the difference between 12/8 and 4/4 in this context?

Also, I'm counting tientos like this;

1 and 2 and a 4 1 and 2 and a 4

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2003 19:48:00

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Also, what would be a good toque to either precede or follow tientos?

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2003 19:49:33

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Merle,
Thanks for posting. Check you private "Inbox" on the top right menu

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2003 19:51:25

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Sorry about that Merle, I have set the option to receive private mail in my profile. Didn't know it was an option

I've deleted your post and put another one in your inbox.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2003 23:30:15

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Merle,
I don't know much about counting, but I do know that there's supposed to be a 3 somewhere between the 2 and the 4

. Seriously, I'm taking lessons in Jerez and, believe it or not, they do not count. The most I've ever heard my teacher count is 1,2 maybe to mark a pause or a golpe and a pause. Anyway, this has nothing to do with your question, does it?

I know very little about music, but I'm learning and I've seen Tientos transcribed in 4/4 and 2/4 time. I think 2/4 is probably more technically accurate because the accented beats are typically 1 and 3 (if it's written in 4/4 time). I'll try to post a little Tientos that I learned in Jerez and you can compare it to what you're learning. I'll have to see if I can play for a mintue and a half without making 12 mistakes.

I've also attempted to transcribe the falsetas in Guitar Pro. Iif you're interested, I'll trade you for that Malgueña

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 1:35:21

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Phil, I would really like to hear, how you hear it, tientos from where you live. Tientos is such a, well, differerent, uh palo, and it is so BEAUTIFUL to my ears. It has that lonely feeling, and to me at least, it has that, "maybe, just maybe, every thing will be OK", feeling!! ;>) (BUT THEN AGAIN, MAYBE NOT, FEELING)! :>0

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 1:44:59

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

quote:

It has that lonely feeling, and to me at least, it has that, "maybe, just maybe, every thing will be OK", feeling!! ;>)

Merle,
Maybe that's why they almost aleays end it with Tangos.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 2:05:02

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Does this thing have a spell checker? I NEED a spell checker

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 2:06:29

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

http://members.aol.com:/mmusicdog7/nasty-tientos/.MP3

Phil, I recorded this tonight, see what I mean? (oh, i'm a beginner, please)///

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 3:07:48

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

http://members.aol.com:/mmusicdog7/private/nasty-tientos.MP3

(damn computers, (&##%&*)^)

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 3:09:49

Josh

Posts: 44
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

I dont know about phil but I enjoyed your "private" "nasty" tientos. I agree that having a three in there is a good thing but for you ill let it slide.
JoshH

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 10:25:30

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Tientos (in reply to Phil)

Phil;

Interesting point about ending Tientos with Tangos. I learned that Tientos was one tempo all the way through - and slow. Forgive me but I learned that about 45 years ago. My teacher was from Cadiz.

Last night I played a Tientos and Katy loved it! She likes the sad feeling she said.

I have heard some Americans play Tientos at 170 bpm and then the ending at 270 bpm. For me I like about 90 bpm.

You can call any piece of music whatever you like. If it sells then you are right. Such a blast.

One reason for ending any piece fast is to capture the audience. If the audience knows little or nothing about your music they will remember the fast flury at the end. Wow! Such a player!

Turn on the colored lights with mirrors, smoke and fire. Set off the fireworks.

I think my approach to this subject is very tame but I do have fun!

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 16:26:22

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Merle;

Go to my web site and take a look at the Tientos example.

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 16:27:29

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Tom,
Certainly the fashion now is to end Tientos with Tangos, even for the Cante, even if it's just for a few bars.
(Just going by the stuff I hear)
Isn't it just to bring up the mood a bit at the end to prevent the audience sliding into depression?
Come to think of it, I can't really remember hearing a straight Tientos all the way through to the finish.
Zata would probably be the person who could shed more light on this and when it started.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 17:06:34

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Tom, I played this tientos at the tempo that Juan Martin does in his El Arte flamenco book, page 108.

Phil, if you have this book, I'm just going by the way Martin tells me how to count it.

1 and 2 and a 4

I mean, it has a 3 in there, it has to, but on page 107 it explains why the 3 is left out of the traditional way of counting tientos. I mean, I'm just going by what I'm reading and hearing, remember I'm a beginner here in Utah, and I have no one else to correct me!! ;>)

Merle

P.S. Tom, I have a new computer and lost the url to your website. Please post it here for all of us.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 20:27:28

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Tom,
First, how did you get the subject line to read (in reply to Phil)? Did you type it in or was it automatic? I see nothing on my screen that allows me to reply to a specific poster. I'm using Netscape because IE just stop working properly and I couldn't fix it even with downloads from MS, could that be the problem?

Regarding Tientos: I agree that it should be played slowly and with strong accentuations. I started cante accompaniment class last week, which is a group class, and my teacher is always telling people to SLOW DOWN on Tientos, Soleas, and Siguiriyas. He even has to slow people down on Tangos! So it's not a problem exclusive to American guitarists.

Like Ron said, nowadays Tientos almost always finishes with Tangos and I'm talking about the cante, not solo guitar or cante with dance. In fact you rarley see dancers at the peñas around here, which is kind of a shock to tourists who associate Flamenco so strongly with the dance. Usually the only dancing you see is an impromtu dance por Bulerias by the singer or the palmeros. It seems that with the professional dancers today EVERYTHING ends up being a Bulerias even Siguiriyas! Hell, they managed to contrive a dance por Martinetes so I guess anything goes today. Sorry, didn't mean to go on a rant

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 21:52:15

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Merle,
Your Tiento sounds pretty good, but like Tom says, slow it down a bit. It should be slow and brooding.

I don't have that book. Could you explain the method of counting a little more. I'm interested. I'll try to record a Tientos and post it tomorrow.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 21:52:48

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Phil in the "flat style" the PostReply will reply to the post that you originally clisked on to get there. Not great, that's why I use the "tree style" and set it as my default in "My Profile"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 22:21:41

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Merle,
Have just downloaded you piece.
Your a natural! Man!
The first few bars is too stiff and is not really "Tientos" to my ear.
(Add a bit of thumb F-G-A like in the the later parts)
But after that you're in the groove!
Forget about counting and 3's etc....you've got it!

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 22:30:08

Guest

RE: Tientos (in reply to Phil)

Tangos and tientos are very closely related. Tangos is from Cadiz. Tientos was invented by Enrique el Mellizo, by slowing down tangos. The modern way to play it is with some syncopation: this was not the case originally.

Please note that all my references are to cante: I do not regard solo guitar as flamenco, though I realise it may be the only option, depending on where you live

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 22:40:53

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Tientos (in reply to Guest)

Hi Sean,
Thanks for the info.

quote:

I do not regard solo guitar as flamenco

Could you expand on that? Do you mean you do not consider it to be a complete representation of flamenco as it lacks some vital ingredients like cante?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 22:44:47

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

Nice one Merle, I'm no expert but sounds like your ras's are coming on. But you didn't upload it here - too big I guess

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 22:49:51

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Phil)

I understand what everyone is saying about the tempo of tientos. As a matter of fact, I normally play tientos much slower with more emotion, feeling, ect.

But, during this month I'm recording a practice CD, so I'm listening to the material before I record it, and this is about the tempo tha Juan Martin plays it on the El Arte book.

Also, listen to his tientos in his new book, Solos Flamencos, and the tempo is not really slow! I don't know!!

I'll re-record this tientos the way I normally hear it, but, again, I'm just setting the metronome to about how Juan Martin does.

I guess that is why flamenco is flamenco! There are no real rules, is there?

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2003 23:59:23

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Guest)

Sean, I know where your coming from about solo flamenco guitar...something is missing with just guitar, but, come here to Utah and find me a dancer or singer! ;>)

I don't intend to make a living or perform flamenco solo guitar, I just do it for the fun and challenge of the music because I love it!

Should I just quit? Maybe, start playing blues, or country music, or, learn opera! Yea, that's it! Opera!!

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2003 0:07:20

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Tientos (in reply to Merle)

I don't have much opportunity to accompany and if I do it would be a dance class and that will have to wait until I have learnt a popular dance palos, but I do prefer the sound of the solo guitar and it has taken a long time for me to be comfortable and enjoy cante. Now I love it. Carmen Linares and Moron. Both more lyrical and melodic to our tastes I guess?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2003 0:21:21

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Merle)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2003 21:12:19

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tientos (in reply to Escribano)

UN Y - (dos) Y - TRES - QUATRO

Andy, I can hear that in my head!! That's good!!

Thanks so much!

UN Y - (dos) Y - TRES - QUATRO

That is way cool!!

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2003 23:27:40