question - theory and flamenco

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marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

question - theory and flamenco

hello everyone, i have noticed that there are some people here who play flamenco guitar, but also know music theory. it makes sense, because im sure a lot of the players here have backgrounds in other music

i love music theory, and always have preferred to read it over novels and such, so i know a little bit about it, and have always used it to drive y creativity and help my understanding of music

since i started learning about flamenco guitar, i have not worried so much with theory, I just watch and listen very carefully in lessons, and ask lots of questions, then i spend a lot of time listening to flamenco music and trying to hear the dynamics, im listening for where contra is used, being very aware of what is happening

i wanted to ask if the pro's here would recommend me also taking a theory approach when im at home. im not sure if it is something that i should be doing

for example, if i harmonise modo dorico with A as the root note, would the scale tone chords be the cocrrect choices for a bulerias in A? or did the early flamenco players take different approaches than what i would be used to

i hope that question made sensse, i find it difficult to be clear and concise when i am typing instead of talking

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2010 16:34:48

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

No the Phrygian mode is what gets used more. Start from A in the Key of F major.
Add C#'s, (land leave the C naturals too), F#'s, D#'s, A#'s and B natural's too... just use those other tones in an "ornamental" fashion.

Sorry, I don't know the terms in Spanish....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2010 16:39:34

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

quote:

for example, if i harmonise modo dorico

quote:

No the Phrygian mode is what gets used more.

Yeah, it's confusing; in Spanish (at least when referring to flamenco), phrygian mode is called 'modo dorico'. Don't ask me how that happened.

http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar-method/10-harmony-chords.html

http://www.tristeyazul.com/cronicas/ntc14.htm

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2010 17:30:48

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

For buleria in A phrygian you can use the E locrian scalar pattern. The latter covers all six strings in the open position.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2010 17:32:18

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

thank you jason, i am sort of familiar with playing phrygian mode, and i will explore those other tones, in context

quote:

Sorry, I don't know the terms in Spanish....

thats fine :) up until recently i would have called modo dorico "phyrgian dominant"

quote:

Yeah, it's confusing; in Spanish (at least when referring to flamenco), phrygian mode is called 'modo dorico'. Don't ask me how that happened.

i believe that modo dorico is based on teh phygian dominant of harmonic minor, as apposed to phrygian mode, which is based on major, this stuff is a little fuzzy to me though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2010 17:34:16

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to marduk)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 0:39:18

Ram87

Posts: 8
Joined: Aug. 20 2009

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

hi
A phygian is
A Bb C D E F G A
A phygian [Dominant] would be
A Bb C# D E F G A
the term 'phygian' generally means a 'scale' with a b2nd
the first is minor [derived from a western major scale]
the second is Major [with a dominant 7th] [derived from a western harmonic minor scale]
The second outlines the harmony in a Bulerias starting on a A7 type chord [with a diminished 2nd]
Both ARE phygian.
But
put in those G#'s or D#!!!! or anything else! Forward motion!!!

The term 'Modo Dorico' comes from the assumption that the diatonic 'dorian' Mode was considered [in ancient times] the Tonic of the modes, Unlike the church 'modal' system that starts on the major scale. but none of us were around to witness any of this!!
Hence the the Dorian mode of old is the phygian mode of today.
hope that makes sense...my head is hurting now!!

now wheres my guitar?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 1:05:48

Ram87

Posts: 8
Joined: Aug. 20 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 7 2010 1:11:31

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 1:08:48

Ram87

Posts: 8
Joined: Aug. 20 2009

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

The Levine book is an excellent read with many practical applications to music, harmony and melody. Also Mick Goodrick's book [Berkley faculty] 'the advancing guitarist" is a great way to put head and hands together....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 1:36:23

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to Ram87)

thanks guys,

that makes much more sense then the way i tried to describe it, and i also appreciate teh references, i will really enjoy reading that. I want to know as much of the history of flammenco as possible, and i have found that the theory behind the music is the hardest information on the topic to find

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 5:27:09

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

quote:

i have found that the theory behind the music is the hardest information on the topic to find

...because there's no theory behind it. 'Theory' comes afterwards (if at all) when people attempt to explain it or, as is often the case here, communicate with each other about it.

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 7:27:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to Guest)

quote:

A modified theory of Tonality works much better to describe flamenco

yes that is right. Because the guitar is not a modal instrument like the greeks would use say, it is not appropriate to use greek modal theory to apply to flamenco. The guitar is a tonal instrument being used to accompanying singing that is kind of a mix of modal and tonal concepts. Something like martinete or siguiriyas can be thought of as more a "modal" type song, where you dont' need much more than a drone to harmonize the singer. Vs Fandangos which modulates to major and uses tonal V-I type progressions.

For marduk, I say don't worry so much about music theory just yet. Work on compas and techniques for playing, and traditional falsetas and chord patterns. A chord scale won't help, because you need to think more about the clever voicings that flamenco players use, which are mostly unique to this style. (interesting extensions and inversions result from simply allowing open strings to ring for example).

So start developing a flamenco "vocabulary" first, and later you can apply or anylize using tonal harmony theory concepts.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 11:32:50

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

thank you Ricardo.

i have been running through the chords Jason M suggested ffor my bulerias attempt. it has been pointed out to me before about the use of lots of open strings,

i have plenty to keep me busy. i just love reading music theory (good way to take a break from practice without losing the mood to practice)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 13:58:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marduk

thank you Ricardo.

i have been running through the chords Jason M suggested ffor my bulerias attempt. it has been pointed out to me before about the use of lots of open strings,

i have plenty to keep me busy. i just love reading music theory (good way to take a break from practice without losing the mood to practice)

Oh in that case have "fun" reading this thread....one of the worst.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=123285&p=2&tmode=1&smode=1

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 14:44:22

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Oh in that case have "fun" reading this thread....one of the worst.

ooh that reminds me, i forgot to ask, whats a chord?

does arpeggio mean the chord is broken

how do i fix it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2010 16:50:35

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

It's important to know all the notes in the diatonic scale relative to the key you're playing in. For example, when you're playing toque de Levante (F sharp tonic, for tarantas, etc.) the underlying diatonic scale is D major, B minor or whatever you want to call it (F sharp phrygian). But you probably already know that much. It's also useful and interesting to transpose to other keys, especially the chords used in all the fandango-based styles (fandango, malagueña, granaína, taranta, minera, etc.) But that's not really music theory.

I agree with Ricardo's advice. I would say just keep an eye on the notes of the underlying diatonic scale, the major third in the tonic, and the implications of using seventh chords (G7 and D7 in toque de Levante, for example).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2010 5:40:22

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to NormanKliman)

thank you for the further advice NomanKliman, you guys are aweosme, Ole!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2010 20:05:42

Alatriste

Posts: 91
Joined: Dec. 23 2009

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

'Theory' comes afterwards (if at all) when people attempt to explain it or, as is often the case here, communicate with each other about it.

Bravo! The Roman arch and the Roman road were developed long before Civil Engineering. The Wright Brothers (who were bicycle mechanics) flew before Aeronatuical Engineering was 'invented.'

Enjoy your playing, and yes the academic stuff can also be fun.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2010 9:08:21

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to Alatriste)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alatriste

quote:

'Theory' comes afterwards (if at all) when people attempt to explain it or, as is often the case here, communicate with each other about it.

Bravo! The Roman arch and the Roman road were developed long before Civil Engineering. The Wright Brothers (who were bicycle mechanics) flew before Aeronatuical Engineering was 'invented.'

Im sure the wright brothers will have made up their minds and maths about aerodynamics, before putting a "flight machine" together. In fact there are theories (in science at least) that you can theoretically deduct, but practically cant test in experiments yet, because you dont have the means to it. I have read that some of Einsteins theses could been proved DECADES after they were published.
If anything, your examples actually show that you can get much further with than without theory

but yeah, theory is not a must in music.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2010 9:25:52

hobersmith

Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 21 2010

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

Unless you want to compose your songs theory is really unnecessary.

I guess it's also a little useful when you're improvising but you can really get by it just by focusing on what sounds good.

The brain is much more suitable then what little theory one might know to tell what sounds good and what sounds inappropriate.

In time theory will come by itself in the form of a personalized view on things.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2010 9:42:50

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to hobersmith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hobersmith
In time theory will come by itself in the form of a personalized view on things.

Absolutely. I call it the "felt knowledge" because, for example, you dont need to know that the chord is a Bb or C chord and functions as this or that harmonic device to capture the meaning of it in the song. You can simply "feel" it.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2010 9:53:58

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: question - theory and flamenco (in reply to marduk)

You guys all forget that everyone is different, so everyone learns, performs, assibilates and digests ideas and theories differently.

I am a brain person. If my brain can't digest it, forget my fingers or my ears doing anything with it. Without theory I'd be lost.

That however is the exact opposite where composition is involved. Because composition (as opossed to improvisation and melody) is more "broad strokes" I'm much more apt to just throw something out that works.

I see this constantly on this site, the idea that one method will and should work for everyone. That's rarely the case.

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2010 10:18:15