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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenco Guitarist
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 RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Ricardo)
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[
1. Classical guitar method does not necessarily teach you to read WELL. Most of the time, unless in an ensemble, you end up working through a piece and going through the positions and fingerings slow. I recommend if you want to read, and this might help your flamenco better, is to find a jazz teacher and work on reading with him. REASON is there will be an emphasis on reading AND keeping time, and feeling what you read rather then just finding the notes, plus, you will get a focus on chords and scales, and how they fit together. Again you won't get that with a classical guitar teacher. Also, the jazz teacher won't care your flamenco technique or whatever method you use to play a chord or notes you are sight reading, and may think it "cool" you do it that way. He may get you start reading in the middle of the fingerboard too so you get more understanding how the fretboard is laid out, vs open position scales and such.
Classical guitar teacher of any repute will not let you get away with making "flamenco sounds" when trying to interpret a classical piece, or even just an exercise, no matter how beginner level (and especially if it is lower level). Deliberately avoiding making "flamenco sounding" strokes will affect your playing for sure.
2. Your problem with adapting falsetas, and compas, is also a rhythm problem, not to be fixed with a classical teacher. Again, perhaps a jazz teacher will get your rhythm going, and ablity to both read and improvise, and this in tern helps your creativity and ability to compose, since improvising is composing on the fly.
However, a warning is that your concept of composing flamenco and adapting your own "falsetas" of your own make is not good. That is not the way to go about progressing in flamenco (unless you want to end up on Jason's fakemenco list, then go ahead). You need to first get grounded in the traditional rhythms and falsetas, at least SOME of them that are from the masters, so you understand even HOW to compose in the style. That will take some time, and in this regard, both the classical and a jazz teacher will not be helping you. Flamenco improvisation is NOT like jazz improvisation at all.
Ricardo
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This is good advice. Having a background in both Classical and Jazz and now spending all avail time learning/playing Flamenco i found the aural skills acquired by both of these genres has enabled a quicker understanding of what is going on harmonically, melodically and rhythmically in the palos. But unlike jazz and classical guitar, flamenco is less cerebal and more visceral.
Saying this Stoney it is maybe the basics of music that need attention and not the interpretation of classical pieces [so much strategic rubato!] or how many 'gnat' notes one can squeeze out of a diminished 7th chord.
The teacher is the key here. So many classical players carry on the tradition of tier teacher who carried on the tradition of their teacher and most of it all leads back to segovia. Listen to the original barrios recordings and compare them to how they are played today. Somehow those scatchy no-tone recordings have a life and viruosity that cannot be instituitionalized...everyone plays those beautiful pieces in much the same way except for barrios himself. [lots of thumb....somehow the transcribers missed that or thought it too 'folkloric' for a concert repetoire]...
I put the video link up of Alessandro Pennezzi to demonstrate the idea of mixing techniques and expanding on tradition. Most classical teachers will not explore that possibilty...[in fact they will beat it to a pulp]...The south Americans and Flamencos understand this idea of exploration well.
So look at drum notation, glue yourself to you tube, practice the palos on the steering wheel of the car...count beats...off beats...polyrhythm explore harmony and the fingerboard...it requires so much time to work up classical pieces, time better used for a living, breathing music....listening is the key.
Thats my view after the last 40 years of guitar.
But yes i can read music...but i listen mostly....[:)
To my ear there is nothing like Flamenco......
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Date Feb. 9 2010 7:41:03
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Guest
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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PS...use the money from classical guitar lessons and hang out in Jerez for a few months.  Life is short.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 9 2010 7:44:37
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stoney
However, internationally and maybe to a small extent here many ""Serious"" musicians - (interpret that as you will) consider classical training to be a hinderance and classical musicians to be bums that can't play squat unless they have a piece of sheet music in front of them. A fallacy in most cases.
i don't think so and haven't experience such things.
maybe as a reaction to some negative comments from the other "fraction" towards flamenco, but almost never initial !
but often i have experiences initial prejudices towards flamencos (online, and in real life) from Classical fraction.
for instance, one of my friends here in frankfurt studies classic guitar in the conservatory with a prof. ( i think his name was wilfried but i am really not sure, maybe was an other name....a student of julian bream for years). one day he told me to come with him and have a look what he does, etc. just for fun. i said ok and went with him to the conservatory. after the lesson (which i watched quite and interested), we talked a little bit and finally the teacher asked me to show him "this flamenco things" and what i do and have learned so far.
i had no guitar, so took the classic guitar of my friend and did some flamenco things (without Golpes of course  ).
the prof. looked very seriously and said: "this sounds like brutal raping of the guitar and is a violation towards human ears"
well i just laughed at that time and stayed nice. didn't want any negative effect towards my friend.
(ok, you can say that i played so bad, that even a flamenco would say the same thing ;-), maybe.
ok, this is kind of extreme experience, but IN MY OPINION, there are many classical teachers with such an attitude.
sometimes subtle, sometimes directly. i experienced that in other occasions too (online).
some flamencos experienced the same thing and maybe as a reaction, they answered something, but we never "started" anything.
ok, this was kind of off topic, sorry, i guess your questions are already answered by others.
good luck
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Date Feb. 10 2010 5:55:00
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minordjango
Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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haha i lik those comments, its funny classical guiatar players certainly (at times a possesed with tone and nail care, and what edition of sor studies or why did Segovia leave out such a note 
yet on the forum here sometimes we go off about things i.e fakeflamenco , or whatever, or ,many dudes so worried about rhythm , we'd be all scared to play .
but if ya in it for fun and just something in life like to get as much as ya can , why not try some lessons with a jazz dude and classical dude down the track.
;and get the noad book, or violin partitas from Bach or simple studies , and just noodle (i mean read through em' .
lots of good music to chck out in all style in my opinion, and il ike having the abillity to chay about jazz or classical, or rock, flamenco well, im just loving it, listening and fiddle fro time to time still cant cant play in time .
maybe thats my classical training!!  just enjoy do a little read everyday (with the guitra) it will come along.
and with a metronome, tap out rhthmic ideas , then gradually incoporate sycopation , then work with note location around the fret board .
play a phrase in 5 positions of the fretboard that opens up the neck .
but Enjoy it
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Date Feb. 10 2010 8:01:32
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Stoney
Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
Oh, i cant read btw (at least not in speed).
Translation - You CAN read. You can figure out the rithmic value of a bunch of quarter and eight notes together on the staff, hum it in your head and then play it slowly, get the idea and then perfect it, right? What you are saying is you can't sight read which is a whole other thing. (millions can read music, very few can sight read)
Hey, I'm not picking a fight here or argueing with the everyone on the forum, but for the benefit of a beginner, beginner guitarist - reading is a tool like any other, but apparently one that is taken for granted. I (as a person who absolutely CANNOT read) envy anyone who can, particularly if it means the difference between being able to play a falsetta or not.
Stoney
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Date Feb. 12 2010 4:54:52
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