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Classical Guitar for the Flamenco Guitarist
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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 RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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LOL thats funny. I have no classical background, i have no background at all, but in the beginning I have had lessons for several months with an "allround"-guitarrist (rock, blues, classical), but we mainly went through very basic arpeggio technique. For that we used classical music, but it was very basic coz i was very beginner. Parallel to the lessons i taught myself the flamenco techniques. After i stopped lessons i noticed a downfall in my flamenco technique. Downfall is actually wrong, i just develop much slower than i developed back then.
I would say taking lessons is always better than not, but it has to be an open minded guy towards flamenco technique. Genuine classical guitar lessons will only get in the way to your flamenco techniques.
edit: i want to disagree with Randal. Classical technique has nothing to do with flamenco. We want a different sound, different feel, different attack.
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Date Feb. 8 2010 9:02:42
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Randal
Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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Roughly speaking, it's the difference between violin and fiddle: flamenco is a specific repertoire of technique that sometimes conflicts with classical approach. Unless you care to spend time sorting between them--which is fine if you have the time and wherewithal--if you want to play flamenco, flamenco is what you should play.
While I think my background studying classical helps me in many ways, I find that I must refine my style of playing, naturally, for proper flamenco technique. For example, there is a slight but fundamental difference in wrist position. In classical, wrist position is everything. The classical position impedes flamenco technique. For me, while I can adjust pretty quickly--I've learned many styles of playing including fiddle, banjo, and various other guitar styles...--it still takes time to "re-learn." you may or may not make adjustment easily, but it takes time and energy to do this. Generally, you want to develop fundamental technique in one or another separately, not simultaneously. Les confusing, and better for muscle memory.
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http://www.myspace.com/birdtranescoenow
Why bother? -John Cage
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Date Feb. 8 2010 9:33:35
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stoney
quote:
have classical background of sorts, and I recommend NOT taking classical lessons at all if you are interested seriously in flamenco.
So are you saying that learning to read and studying classical guitar music is detrimental to playing Flamenco? I mean, it's not a cult and I'm not going to be studying with Segovia so what's the harm? The advantages seem to be greater than the downfall.
Explain please.
Stoney
i guess what he means is not that learning to read, theory, etc. is bad.
but taking classic guitar classes (where you have to play with your instrument completely different technique and style) is not so good and can even be detrimental, specially if you say that you want to do that, because you can't find a flamenco teacher, which sounds like a replacement !
i would rather take online flamenco lessons, than taking classic guitar lessons with a teacher in your town.
it would be the same, if you would ask a classical guitar player, if he should take flamenco lessons just because there is no classical teacher around. he shouldn't do that.
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Date Feb. 8 2010 9:46:40
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Randal
Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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quote:
I suppose my main interest is to learn to read music really well and then get out.
...
As far as technique is concerned, I just don't see classical getting in the way of Flamenco, I could however see Flamenco getting in the way of classical as in overpowering it. I occassionally run through Romance d'amor and I just have to throw in a rasgueado at the end.
You certainly can study reading without interfering with developing flamenco technique.
Pertaining to the second point, it is something you might notice later, and at that point it may be more problematic. Either way, you won't know until you devote time and energy to develop proficiency to discern between the two techniques, which detracts from one or the other. An astute with enough eye and ear for detail can navigate these waters, and hopefully, an apt teacher may help. But I'm afraid that there are a great many who may not, and this will further complicate your learning.
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http://www.myspace.com/birdtranescoenow
Why bother? -John Cage
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Date Feb. 8 2010 10:00:23
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minordjango
Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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quote:
So are you saying that learning to read and studying classical guitar music is detrimental to playing Flamenco? I mean, it's not a cult and I'm not going to be studying with Segovia so what's the harm? The advantages seem to be greater than the downfall. .
stoney amigo , just enjoy the music , pick up a cheap book, or scores on the net, learn basic skills if u want , and it cant hurt unless ur being anal with it! i.e thinking its going to ruin things nah!!
riqueni, he writes it scores out (notation and rhythm, and maybe some people just memorize it , so check it out , try if its good thats cool.
there is some cool reeptoire from carcassi/ gN.coste - to scarlatti, ramaeu, Lauro, Barrios, dowland , to bogdanovic to dodgson.
on another post i enquired about adam del monte , he (Im my mind ) plays darn fine classical and flamenco n, see his bach recordingsr.
arron sheerer methods are cool , and fred noad , get ya started , good cheap books
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Date Feb. 8 2010 11:10:46
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stoney
I suppose my main interest is to learn to read music really well and then get out.
I find myself in a position that aside from a few technique difficulties, my main area of distress is inventing and adapting falsetas. I come up with something and I'm not sure if it is in compas or not.
Being able to break it down 100% via note value etc. etc. would fix that problem.
As far as technique is concerned, I just don't see classical getting in the way of Flamenco, I could however see Flamenco getting in the way of classical as in overpowering it. I occassionally run through Romance d'amor and I just have to throw in a rasgueado at the end.
Anyway, thanks for the opinions.
Stoney
Just want to point out stoney, since you have started posting here, you have a tendency to ask a good question, get a bunch of similar line answers, don's seem to like them and want to argue a little about it. Just an observation.
2 things.
1. Classical guitar method does not necessarily teach you to read WELL. Most of the time, unless in an ensemble, you end up working through a piece and going through the positions and fingerings slow. I recommend if you want to read, and this might help your flamenco better, is to find a jazz teacher and work on reading with him. REASON is there will be an emphasis on reading AND keeping time, and feeling what you read rather then just finding the notes, plus, you will get a focus on chords and scales, and how they fit together. Again you won't get that with a classical guitar teacher. Also, the jazz teacher won't care your flamenco technique or whatever method you use to play a chord or notes you are sight reading, and may think it "cool" you do it that way. He may get you start reading in the middle of the fingerboard too so you get more understanding how the fretboard is laid out, vs open position scales and such.
Classical guitar teacher of any repute will not let you get away with making "flamenco sounds" when trying to interpret a classical piece, or even just an exercise, no matter how beginner level (and especially if it is lower level). Deliberately avoiding making "flamenco sounding" strokes will affect your playing for sure.
2. Your problem with adapting falsetas, and compas, is also a rhythm problem, not to be fixed with a classical teacher. Again, perhaps a jazz teacher will get your rhythm going, and ablity to both read and improvise, and this in tern helps your creativity and ability to compose, since improvising is composing on the fly.
However, a warning is that your concept of composing flamenco and adapting your own "falsetas" of your own make is not good. That is not the way to go about progressing in flamenco (unless you want to end up on Jason's fakemenco list, then go ahead). You need to first get grounded in the traditional rhythms and falsetas, at least SOME of them that are from the masters, so you understand even HOW to compose in the style. That will take some time, and in this regard, both the classical and a jazz teacher will not be helping you. Flamenco improvisation is NOT like jazz improvisation at all.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 8 2010 14:17:24
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Stoney
Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
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RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney)
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quote:
Just want to point out stoney, since you have started posting here, you have a tendency to ask a good question, get a bunch of similar line answers, don's seem to like them and want to argue a little about it. Just an observation.
Well, I would think so! (I'd say after getting a few opinons I like to discuss the reasoning rather than "argue" but I'm cool with that observation)
I probably should have known better than to post this question at all. At no time did I state that I had any plan on adapting classical technique. Ricardo's suggestion to find a Jazz teacher to learn to read seems to make sense and I will investigate that option.
However, just as I wouldn't let a Jazz teacher shove his philosopy down my throat, neither would I with a classical teacher. Regardless, it's too late for me anyway. Flamenco is like church, once you've been introduced to it, it sticks for life. Everything I do on the guitar, regardless of style always gets a Flamenco treatment. I can't help it. (and don't really want to change that anyway)
I just forgot about the prejudice against all things classical and should have left that out all together.
Stoney
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Date Feb. 9 2010 5:59:57
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. My personal favorite music to play on guitar other than flamenco is Bach, Satie, and bossa nova. 
