teaching my first palmas class today wish me luck

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

teaching my first palmas class today...

i am a bitt nervous.i never gave lessons to anymore than one person at the time... there might be between 20 - 30 i dont know maybe even more..dance students plus some beginner guitarists....at the flamenco school where i play we decided to incorporate a class where we focus purely on palmas from a musical point of view and look at details (cause i always winge about it lol and all they ever did was 5 minutes at the end of a class and i really think thats nowhere near enough)

we gonna start with basics and work our way to doing specific palmas that works well with specific choreographies, cante, guitar pieces slowly but surely...one litlle thing at the time...cause all they have been doing is just straight compas at the same volume ...regardless of what the guitar or the singer or the dancer dancing does...they might go a bitt louder but no nice contras or offbeats that compliments whatever is happening..so we gonna work on that and the quality of the sound and the listening of whats happening and complimenting it..and following the dynamics of the singer/dancer/guitar

hopefully i wont choke..but atleast i get to design my palmas exactly how i like it

i got many ideas of things and exercises we gonna do...find specific brakes ond ways of accomp a letra or llamada and take an audio or dvd in ...but if anyone has any other good idea, trainig exercises please share..

the goal is to get started of this and atleast be aware of the importance and how it should sound and always chase the perfect palmas...etc.

I think too many dancers just think of it as keeping compas and not as it beeing an instrument...if you can hear it its an instrument IMO and it deserves the attention you would give if you were playing an instrument...

makes such a huge difference...it dosent matter if everyone else is perfect in compas..if palmas arent there 100% it will always sound like crap and then whats the point of training everything else ...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2010 17:29:51

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

hi there.. I wish I could sit in a palma class...
in dance schools, do they mind if I sit in and just watch/learn palma from them? I think it would help heaps in compas.. but I'm just afraid that they would say no..
if they say yes, how much money should I give them? 10/class?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2010 23:40:16

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to HolyEvil)

nah mate theres no reason why they would..infact they would probably love it...at the end of the day is extra money in their pockets....

is there palmas classes at the schools you are thinking off ?

i dont know about how much you should pay ...whatever you negotiate with them i soposse...everyone has their different prices....but if you pay as you go casualy , you will end up paying more so negotiate per turn...even if you miss some most times works out cheaper..

at the school i am doing the teachers also have a packedge where a dancer pays a certain amount and they can come to everything as much as they like...everyday if they want, every lesson etc..(workshops not included)

and i get paid a certain negotiated amount ...but diff schools might have different systems..

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2010 23:49:59

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

Im really glad to hear that. Theres alot of consciousness to build for palmas. If i were you, i would put on a metonome to the speakers and make them clap a constant slow beat with proper tone for one hour. Then you can start on the first Tangos pattern or so.
People really underestimate palmas. I am serious, make a recording of their palmas, and then record yourself and tell them to compare, if they think that it sounds the same.

Well i would even start earlier, on how to sit and stand correctly for palmas. How to hold your arm etc. If the palmas are looking like going to sleep every second, somethings going wrong there. If thats all ok, then i would start on tone. That will at least take some months. Then the first Tangos pattern. Contras maybe after one year or so

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 1:14:31

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

Florian, just ask yourself a question. Can you clap? Do you know what youre doing? If not, dont teach. (Dont do it like the 1000ds youtube morons who want to teach guitar but cant play)

If you can, teach if you like. Than you dont have to be nervous.

Just realize that you are the most experienced person in the room about what you are going to talk. Theres nothing to fear.. it doesnt matter if there is 1 or 1000 people. I do that before my talks at work. That helps always and plays a keyrole at conferences...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 1:20:22

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

hi there.. I wish I could sit in a palma class...
in dance schools, do they mind if I sit in and just watch/learn palma from them? I think it would help heaps in compas.. but I'm just afraid that they would say no..
if they say yes, how much money should I give them? 10/class?

You want to pay to do palmas in a class??? Do you have too much money?

Ok you are still learning, but you shouldnt pay for accompanying them. Start with a Tangos or Sevillanas class and choose the easiest pattern you can find. If you start with a basic pattern, then you wont bring them off compas. If you are messing up things alot ok then pay

but if not, dont. Flamenco should be "give and take".

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 1:39:52

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

Well, to be honest.. I also never took any compas classes... I learned compas by copying Sabicas bulerias and later the juerga records where Tomatio plays for singers. That worked well for me. oh..yes...and years of playing for dance as 2nd guitarrist. It worked well..
I think the best for learning compas is playing for dance. The best of the best is.. as 2nd guitarist. Than you can follow the leader and try out.

But as dancer? ... Take a compas class!! Its so anoying having 20 clompers in front of you for a few hours who wanna top each other with "who can clop the loudest" and that mostly with a weak compas...

Florian youre doing a good job! (For the guitarists hehe

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 1:57:24

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

So how did it go? Think it's a great idea. I remember the first time I saw someone really play palmas as if an instrument in its own right, it was absolutely stunning.

_____________________________

http://www.flamencojourney.com
http://www.myspace.com/flamencojourney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 3:07:40

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

Hey thanks for the replies..

It went excellent Ailsa.!!..i was really happy ..they were happy..i cant belive how much i enjoyied it...plus i try to make it fun...each week i bring in a nice audio of some nice dynamic palmas with cante and dance and guitar.. to inspire them and start making them listen for dynamics....i promissed them i dont leave anyone behind and dont move on until everyone gets everything....and i am not like a serious teacher ...i make jokes etc.. and they lough when raise my voice and ask "WTF WAS THAT ?

" they dont get offended cause they know how i joke...but it gives me alot of freedom to speak my mind without worrying that i will upset someone..between the loughs i am getting to say what i need to say

Yeah Doit i am not some solo compas guy...but as you said i was the best guy in the room at it...and most observant (in the room) when it came to things like dynamics and where it goes loud and where it goes soft and where it goes to contra to compliment a llamada or a displante... and where its used to resolve singing or dancing or guitar ..in a phrase and how...and if i dont know i have the discipline to take an audio apart and find out and copy someone who does know....if this sort of things were allready there then obviously they wouldnt need me but if it hasent be done or looked at and it obviously hasent cause i would hear it...then if i need to be the one that voices something we all know we should be doing..then so be it.....theres no doubt that dancers and guitarrists can learn trades from eachother....and looking at sound in detail and dynamics i think its something we have paid alot more detailed attention too..everything to do with sound is mostly our department and if we dont hear somthing or something its detracting or distracting the feel (even if its us) its our job to call it...( u know... minus really experienced dancers)

so thats why we do this and thats why musiceans are good candidates for doing this sort of thing...cause of the way we ressearch and try to pay attention to details and use our practice techniques to give them ideas how to go about it as if its an instrument..and give them some practice ideas from a different point of view

I got pretty ok palmas .....but even if i didnt ...and hopefully they all surpass me..i dont need to do it better ...i just wanna give them ideas on how to practice it and make them aware of the details they have so far not picked up on their own...they might in about 7-10 years of alot of flamenco listening but theres no guarantee and i dont wanna wait that long..and theres no reason to leave this to chance.... even if we just begin listening for it now and beeing aware we are further along then we were yesterday..

you can tell some are just copying the guy or girl next to them so i like putting each on the spot and making them do it by themselfs lol shame them into practicing....dont worry its in a fun way...i even made a joke about it...but fear of embarassement is a genuine fuel to drive someones practice..

we do everything to the slow solo compas base track (and sometimes without so that we relie on ourselfs but always check back and compare and refer to better palmeros then us)...and i inssist everyone atm does it at a volume where everyone can hear everyone else and everything else..that noone is to stand out by themselfs but as togheder as a group ( thats to make everyone gett used to adjust own volume and listen to everything else around and blend) ..and to focus on the quality of the sound and beeing perfectly even and togedther..i dont want 20 people banging on.. on their own and not listening to the guy next to them ...thats madness

I dont mean to brag but Atm i am doing the best palmas class and most detailed i have ever seen done in an adelaide school before and thats a plain fact ..cause all i have ever seen before was 5/10/15 minutes at the end of the class of people not having enough time to get into enough details about what makes good palmas sound good... and dancers not even stoping to think "why do we do palmas ?" ...they just think of it as just something they have to do ...and not enough time gets taken specific catering palmas combinations for specific parts

I got absoluteley no doubt its just a matter of time before other schools will start to notice the difference and how much it ads and i have no doubt they will add a full palmas hour to their schedual too...it makes too much of a difference not to...

u know theres dancers with greate palmas too but most of them have been dancing like 20, 15 years and they had to come to this realisation on their own from alot of listening and watching...

anyway i am courious...how does your schools go about palmas ? do you guys have a full hour lesson on it too ?

sorry about going on lol as you can tell i am a litlle excited about the possibilities and the future of our dynamics

AM I a perfect palmero ? no way man !lol ...but we can find a system and impliment a plan that dosent necesarely need to relie on my ability to do perfect palmas to keep chasing perfection togheder...if i can teach them how to disect an audio and listen out to where the palmas is louder in a pro audio or dance dvd etc, and where its contra in a dance and where it resolves and compliments the singing, and what palmas combination works well with what feet, guitar, cante..and they can learn to listen and recognise this things for themselfs and internalise and copy then i did my job well...they have the best teachers in the world right there in flamenco cds....all they need is to learn how to listen to it

and after a few lessons i will make recordings and let them experience what we have all had to experience...that painful but valuable first time when you record yourself and hear yourself on playback...when you tought your compas was good..and we will keep doing that and not stop until we like what we hear

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 4:46:59

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

You want to pay to do palmas in a class??? Do you have too much money?
Ok you are still learning, but you shouldnt pay for accompanying them. Start with a Tangos or Sevillanas class and choose the easiest pattern you can find. If you start with a basic pattern, then you wont bring them off compas. If you are messing up things alot ok then pay but if not, dont. Flamenco should be "give and take".

hahah no on the contrary.. i'm pretty much poor..lol
but I wanted a palmas class to drill the compas into me..
and if I do it at a school, I was thinking they have bills to pay etc and I am getting something out of it.. so I don't mind paying a small fee.. but of course if it was offered free, I won't decline,
maybe help out arranging/tidying up the room pre/post class?

florian: glad it worked out well mate..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2010 14:08:08

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

hahah no on the contrary.. i'm pretty much poor..lol
but I wanted a palmas class to drill the compas into me..
and if I do it at a school, I was thinking they have bills to pay etc and I am getting something out of it..

Ok then i misunderstood. If you mean a special palmas class, where palmas is taught, then this is just a normal lesson and you should pay for the expertise. But if you just wanted to clap along a dance class, then this is different of course.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2010 2:09:49

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

your first palmas class was really awesome. i think it went really well, it is really good that you are talking about the dynamics, and about the dancers being more aware of teh compas, and contributing to the sound. i learned a lot even from the first lesson

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2010 19:46:52

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

I realize this would require a bit of work and or thought on your part but how about sharing a little of that wealth of knowledge with us here on the forum.

(Open an account - We'll make donations)

Damn if palmas isn't a mystery to every Flamenco guitarist who NEVER visited Spain.

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 5:19:18

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to HolyEvil)

holyevil

I would suggest trying to find a good palmeo, or a guitar player that is very good at palmas, and try approaching them for private leessons

i am on the pension, and i am paying for lessons from a few different teachers, my main way of supporting this when money gets tight, is to go busking. hope this inspires you, i would personally work a few days a week in a dung mine, if that was what was required to pay for palmas classes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 5:33:08

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

Stoney i dont have anything extra to teach rather then what you can allready find and hear for yourself in any flamenco audio...i do it for dancers cause it affects me personally lol and fustrates me sometimes i swear they dont listen to flamenco..

but you are a musicean i have every faith that you can discover it all for yourself...

I mostly talk about steady ...nice sounding compas and dynamics that pays attention to whatever is happening at the time and works with it and enhances it..

the trick is to listen for it...if you listen for the palmas in a buleria track you will notice where it goes contra and where its used to resolve a letra or a falseta or how its used to enhance a falseta by going to contra etc..etc..

you have all the best palmeros in the world with the best examples in the world at your finger tips...you dont need me..

for an exercise just isolate everything else out and listen for the pamlas and dynamics...take notice where it goes loud and where it goes soft...where it stays straight and where it goes contra, where it goes sorda and where it goes claro...soon you will get used to it and recognise the patterns...and internalize the dynamics and come second nature to you...

if you can acompany a buleria letra with guitar you should be able to accompany it with palmas..cause the palmas resolves and answers the singing simillarely to what the guitar would...

one thing i can help with if you dont have any ...i can upload a straight on beat straight foward track to practice your contra...thats a huge part of good palmas...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 5:42:44

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

I'm semi-aware of some of it. I thought you might have a trick or two up your sleeve.

I once met a guy (Spanish Morrocan) who could do point and counter point palmas together (sort of in the style of Gypsy Kings for rumbas) One guy doing the job of two. Would love to learn that trick.

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 5:56:48

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

lol no i got no tricks...just use whatever its out there to get them towards steady , musical , compas that compliments and enhances and takes notice of the dynamics of whatever is happening..

i keeped crying about it for years then i figured il never get what i want unless i tell em exactly what i want...so might as well do something about it

ofcourse that last part dosent applie to the guitarists all thow it will come in just as usefull to them...but theres a few new guitarists there (well more this week) and for them is basically an introduction to the compas at the same time

i got a couple of litlle personal things i like for llamadas etc...but mostly i use whats out there

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 6:02:53

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

I just found this in the resources area.

Palmas

No idea what language the page is in.

Now to just interpret what it all means.

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 7:57:53

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Stoney)

cool ! thats russian

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 8:03:05

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: teaching my first palmas class t... (in reply to Florian)

Yeah, seriously cool!

Let that be a lesson to me and anyone else new to the forum. There are almost unlimited resources, you just have to look for them.

I thought I had picked this place clean like a Christmas Turkey on New Years Eve but the Forum just keeps giving it up.

Thanks to everybody who ever put these resources in place. You Rock! (or should I say You Rumba)

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2010 10:00:32