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Do you use a flexed or flat wrist for Picado?
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[Poll]
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Do you use a flexed or flat wrist for Picado?
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| Picado with wrist straight w/ fingers more bent |
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| Picado with flexed wrist w/ fingers straighter |
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Total Votes : 43
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(last vote on : Sep. 2 2018 6:28:20)
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ToddK
Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
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 Do you use a flexed or flat wrist fo...
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Ive noticed there are basically 2 general wrist/hand positions for picado.
The "Paco'esque" style where the wrist is fairly straight, and the fingers are more bent. The forearm moves
as fingers move towards basses.
Or like Grisha, or Jason, where the wrist is flexed, and fingers are straighter, with wrist flexing
increasingly as fingers move towards the basses.
Please explain the reasons behind your preferance.
I find that i look at my hand, and i want it to look straighter (watched too many Paco vids), but i naturally end up flexing my hand downward.
Im working on getting somewhere in between. I have a problem with having my index running into my thumb.
No doubt this comes from holding a pick for 30 years straight.  Im just recently starting to get a "relaxed" feeling when doing picado,
yet still somehow retaining punch and power, which is something that Grisha explained here rather well some years ago.
3 things of note have helped me. Changing up the scale sequences, (not just playing straight up and down scales), Speed Bursts with varying note groupings, and starting a picado
practice session out with playing lines softly, going for consistancy, and relaxing, then gradually increasing volume, while maintaining relaxation in between
strokes. (going for ballistic motion and avoiding "exchanging" fingers)
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Date Jan. 28 2010 18:31:01
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
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flat bent fingers, mainly cuz it makes switching between arps and melody smoother. Speed is often the idea of students trying to copy the flat wrist (paco is fast so, I must do it his way!), but not related directly to this position. There are equally fast players from both camps. But there is a comfy fluid feeling in the hand when you develop this flat wrist/bent fingers.
About nuñez, he is the ONLY player I have seen that can demo BOTH ways. I find most guys get one way and that is it, it becomes natural. Obvious he was aware of the difference and tried both ways. As he states, doing what ever feels most natural is the "correct" thing to do...in the end you simply must achieve fluidity, rhythm control, and flamenco tone. If you are NOT getting one of these, I personal feel it would be good to explore the "other way" what ever it is. But if all is well, don't change.
About pumping nylon, the straight line concept of elbow, wrist and hand, changes things alot interms of sound. Flamenco players almost always angle the wrist sideways (regardless if wrist if flat or arched) so the fingers play more face on to the strings. This in turns affects nail shape.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 29 2010 12:34:12
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
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quote:
Weird- to me that adds unnecessary hand tension, but I can't really criticize a player as good as Vicente.
This issue came up many years ago at FT. As you point out, "tension" in the pinky is unnecessary, but several players doing something weird with the pinky end up with tons of speed and control anyway. I feel like it is not a main contributing factor to speed.
When I first started playing with fingers, I used to tuck my fingers up into my palm when doing picado (see Riqueni and some others, Sabicas maybe???), after seeing vids of Paco and Tomatito, I made conscience effort to keep the pinky and ring OUT, and the result is my pinky does the same deal as vicente here, and Tomatito, etc. It definantly made my hand feel better then it DID, but not sure if it slowed me down. The tension I personally feel is kind of natural, I never really noticed it or felt pain or tired when doing lots of picado. It is not so tense that it is like a tight fist, one could easily push it down while I was playing. But who knows? If it try to let the pinky down on purpose, my hand feels REALLY strange and not in control as normal.
Anyway, other fast players do weird things with the pinky. When doing arps Nuñez and Tomatito EXTEND the pinky then curl it, it looks really weird. Paco de lucia sticks his pinky out sideways for picado, which again if I try that my had feels MORE tense then when I curl it up.
Manolo sanlucar has a super relaxed hand, no weird pinky moves or anything, yet he is not exactly the picado monster that some of the others above are.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 29 2010 14:44:02
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Grisha
Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
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RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
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So, along came Grisha and broke the voting balance... in favor of the "forbidden style" You already knew that anyway...
My way is very comfortable for me. I can play scales without feeling too much strain on my muscles. In the 90-s, when I got my hands on Paco's videos for the first time, I tried to mimic him, and all went just fine... until one day I woke up and couldn't play. My middle and ring fingers felt drunk, heavy and didn't want to move at all. I had no control. Had a few embarrassing concerts as a result. It lasted for well over a year, and even now, more than 15 years after, I still feel that injury. I spoke to another guy in Spain who had the same thing, and another person here in USA.
Be careful!!!
On the other hand, I do feel more control when I raise my wrist slightly more than I am used to. The sound definitely becomes more flamenco when I do that. However, I want to retain my classical sound just in case...
Make sure that you exercise not just index and middle, but also ring and index fingers. Middle and ring are optional. Try playing 3-finger scales as well.
A great way of building muscles (because speed is impossible without muscle strength) and practicing stability is playing normal scales with three notes per pitch (triplets). Somehow that exercises your mind, and you stop worrying about each note (as you play every note three times), while still subconsciously controlling your every stroke. This way is also easy on the left hand.
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Date Jan. 30 2010 12:29:35
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