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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco?
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Yes, I think it's boring. I don't want to go to a concert and see solo guitar unless it's Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, or Manuel Barrueco. The guitar is not an orchestra, the guitar is merely one instrument. In fact it is an instrument with an almost identical range to the human voice, so a guitar on stage is similiar to someone singing acapella!
I do like guitar with palmas/percussion, or with bass, or with another guitar, or with a singer, or with a dancer, but a guitar by itself is background music. I know, because I play it. I can play my most energetic pieces, which means they have rhythmic strumming, and some people may perk up. But you hit a bongo four times and people will start tapping their toes.
Don't get me wrong--that's what I do, I play solo guitar. I've had--what 18 gigs this month? And all but 3 of them were solo. Two of the others were duos, and one was a quartet. There is an amazing differnece in energy between groups and solos. Sure, if you're a wildman you may be able to keep people's attention for awhile, but it's not easy! I play Panaderos Flamencos...you'd think that'd get people's attention... but not really.
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Date Nov. 23 2004 14:32:58
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Yes, I think it's boring. I don't want to go to a concert and see solo guitar unless it's Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, or Manuel Barrueco. The guitar is not an orchestra, the guitar is merely one instrument.
If solo guitar is boring, why do you do it? What drives you if 90% of your gigs are solo guitar? (BTW I agree that the general public feel this way, its one of the main reasons I play mostly with backing).
Personally, I think solo flamenco guitar can be a beautiful thing. Yes of course I'd pay good money to see Vicente, Paco etc, but the player doesn't have to be in the world's top ten for me to enjoy it.
I still disagree with what you said about dynamics - maybe you are using the word metaphorically or something, but in my book instruments and the way they are played don't come much more dynamic than the flamenco guitar. Anyone who has tried recording it will vouch for that one.
Jon
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Date Nov. 23 2004 15:47:57
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Jamey
Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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For me it's all good. Just me and my guitar. I converted a small bedroom in my house into a study and have all of my stuff in there. The acoustics in there are excellent. Playing a rodeña late at night to me can be an almost magical experience. For me it's where I find solace, it's calming and to a large extent, therapeutic. It doesn't matter what I'm trying to play, I just enjoy it and I do it only for myself, not for public shows or anything. I suppose performing for unappreciative (or marginally appreciative) crowds can take away some of the joy of playing, turning it into a job of sorts. Eventually I will take up my friends offer and join him in accompanying dance classes, but that's mainly as a learning experience (nothing better than that to drill compas into your head) for me more than putting in time as an accompanist.
Mike, do you think that perhaps you're feeling that flamenco (or rather some of the palos) are getting stale for you because of the audiences you're playing for (and the frequency lately with which you've been playing for them)? If you were playing for flamenco audiences, people who "get it", do you think perhaps that you'd enjoy it more, that you'd find more interest in the other palos? I'm asking honestly, I'm curious to know what kinds of things contribute to feeling that flamenco can become boring or stale or just generally not very enjoyable.
The only thing I don't like......castanets......something about the clacking sound gives me a headache. Palmas are fine, castanets....they just bother me. I used to think that I hated Sevillanas because I always heard it and had seen it performed with castanets. Then I learned to play one and because there's nobody in that little room with me clacking away on those things, I found I liked Sevillanas after all.
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Date Nov. 23 2004 16:31:33
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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I think solo guitar is fun to play, but not fun to listen to.
I don't get bored at my gigs...well, very rarely. In a way, it's performing, and in a way, it's practicing and experimenting with details of your stuff. Like...I have hard time working on expressiveness and dynamics at home, but at my gigs I do that stuff and it's fun. It's different every time. But solo guitar, or solo piano...or solo harp for that mattery is just not a very lively thing. It's very hard to energize a room with just one guitar. In fact, it's too much work. If you've ever gone into a room where there is just one guitarist or a pianist, you will notice that it's a very relaxing, (or could be thought of as boring) atmosphere. But if it's a pianoist and a singer, or two guitarists, or a guitar and a percussionist, then you have a different kind of feeling, a lot more energy and vibe. That's all I was saying.
That's one reason I've been working on my singing... maybe I'll start singing for my cocktail hour type of thing, and then shifting to just guitar for dinner crowd.
As far as dynamic, Jon, try sitting in a crowded, loud room with just your guitar and keep an appropriate energy and dynamism for an hour or two. It's a bit of a feat, really. I know I keep mentioning energy and that might seem funny or seem like I'm burnt out. But the fire in flamenco is mostly in its group context. One guitarist can only do so much. I didn't mean by my comment that the flamenco guitar does not have a good range of volumes, sounds, and moods. It's just too thin for some situations (but still better than classical!)
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Date Nov. 23 2004 16:45:53
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Ron says he has a tape of Paco that is exciting-I have no doubt. But Ron, you specifically excluded Paco as part of your question. Paco is not Boring! He's amazing! But even he doesn't play solo anymore, and of course he could.
I really think the commitment of the player is essential. If the player believes in what he's doing, really loves the music, that gets transmitted to the audience, and can lead to a successful solo concert even without Paco like chops. But take that player, and that audience, and give them years of hearing singers, and years of playing for dancers or seeing good dance, playing for cante, playing with palmas, and then the solo flamenco guitar may seem rather lacking in many cases. So for me it's a matter of degree. Yes, the guitar is beautiful, and a single flamenco inversion played can conjure an image of profound emotion. But put one "advanced student" player in a concert hall and have him play an hour of flamenco guitar, and unless he is exceptionally good, I'm out. Doesn't mean that I don't enjoy playing solo at home, or listening to the pros.
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Date Nov. 23 2004 16:52:55
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KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Anything i feel the need to turn down at the lights when i am listening to it in my car. 
Garrotin, guajira, anything that is too major in key, cheesy, longwinded, wimpy, boring interpretations that go nowhere will result in me pressing the skip button.
Also when people play a crap version of Asturias as part of their granaina. 
I did a gig a while ago with another guitarist playing on a marina at a boat show.
We were on a break and just sitting with our guitars when a guy walked over to me. He didn't say anything, he just pointed at the guitar and gestured that he wanted to play it. He looked at us as if to say, I'll show you how to play guitar.
I gave him the guitar and he began with a big sloppy strum on the e major chord that nearly broke all my strings. He then stared singing, MALAGUENA MALAGUENA MALAGUENA, playing and singing the worst version of it i have heard. My friend and i remained straight faced until he handed the guitar back and walked away proudly without saying anything. After that experience i will have to add Malagueña to my list.
Maybe we should start another thread about funny people at gigs.
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Date Jan. 19 2010 23:07:38
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to KMMI77)
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quote:
Maybe we should start another thread about funny people at gigs.
Hi Kris,
Oh man, that would be long and colorful I'm sure! I once played a bulería at a bar in Austin, Texas as a favor to warm up the crowd for that night's artist. Got a very nice response, no problems there, but after I'd finished a silly woman asked if I could play something by Ottmar Liebert. She was a good friend of the artist and there were a lot of people listening to our conversation, so I said as nicely as I could that I didn't play anything like that. Her (very loud) response was, "Oh, then you don't know nuthin' 'bout no flamingo, hee-hee-hee!"
I'm not too fond of Caracol's "Carcelero," and it just seems kind of silly when concert guitarists try to turn flamenco into a "highbrow" experience, with the tuxedo and everything. Thankfully, you don't see that much anymore.
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Date Jan. 19 2010 23:24:20
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to KMMI77)
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When gringos ask for Mala gwena, they mean lecuona. When latinos ask me, they mean Malagueña SALEROSA. If I am playing a gig and get asked that I say "sure I know Malagueña, my favorite cante!" Then I pelt out in high full voice, loud as SH.T, Malagueña de Mellizo. Especially on instrumental guitar gigs that amuses me cuz they look at me in shock and confusion till I stop and go "what, you don't mean malagueña de mellizo? Which one did you mean, Chacon???"
They usually walk away after that like "what an A hole"...
Lately the new joke is "no, we only do BUENAgueña".
Some one I met was also a "friend" of ottmar and asked my opinion of him. I said "don't ask" they begged, so I just said he is like the Kenny G of flamingo, and left it at that.
Only palo I skip or don't play is Peteneras.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 20 2010 8:15:34
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Florian)
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Hi Flo,
quote:
I know Norman will probably call me up on this and tell me Cana is about the singer and the voice...
By "call you up" I hope you don't mean that I might try to scold you or even raise objections to what you've said. I could add a few comments, but I think everybody already knows this: The only thing that makes it a caña is the melody of the singing, so as far as the guitar is concerned, it's just a soleá. Of course there are some characteristic chords and structure in there, especially the "ay-ay-ay" part (which can be in rhythm or free) but that all comes from the singing. So the only way to make a falseta specific to caña (or polo) would be to work some of those characteristics of the singing into the guitar. Same thing with serrana/siguiriya. Unless you copy parts of the accompaniment or the singing of serrana, it makes no sense to call a siguiriya in E a serrana.
How'd it go with the jaleos?
Ricardo, you don't like THAT cante? I don't even like hearing or reading the name (there's a street with that name near my house, can you imagine?) Today it's considered uncool to express an aversion toward THAT cante, the idea being that it's a naive throwback to the days of mairenismo or something. I've even known more than one gypsy who openly laughed at people who don't like THAT cante. They're always professionals who had to get over the issue a long time ago. The only sort of people who I've seen react in an exaggerated way (making a big deal of covering up their ears) were kind of pathetic guys. But like you, I don't like THAT cante, and I don't care if anyone thinks it's silly or old-fashioned or naive of me. I've heard Menese belt out a great version, really exciting stuff, and of course Pastora... But still, I don't go there, I never bring up the subject in my circles and neither does anyone else.
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Date Jan. 20 2010 8:30:20
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infact it was an invitation to share your knowledge and opinion....i wanted to know how you see it..