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RE: What do you think of?????   You are logged in as Guest
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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Pgh_flamenco) 
quote:

this doesn’t ensure a person will become a good musician EVEN WITH A LOT OF PRACTICE


You're right. There are people who practice 12 hours a day and are bad and people who do the same and are great. The difference is the concentration, what's going on in the head during those 12 hours, which is why I wrote hyperfocus. Are you playing 12 hours while watching TV or are you totally focused and enjoying it the entire time? I guess what I meant is that talent is a question of the passion you have for what you're doing, not simply the ability to do it.

Usually people who have this talent with one thing aren't good at anything else and otherwise have a concentration deficit, touching on the subject from before about being a good salesman.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2009 0:41:49
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.) 
Yeah, you’re right—talent is between the ears and a lot of factors go into developing and maintaining it. Though the term you use here--hyperfocus--doesn’t describe the unique set of circumstances that go into this phenomenon. The research that I am aware of indicates that for a person to perform a physical activity, such as playing a musical instrument, on a high level requires the development of the ability to enter a state of meditation and intense concentration. Being able to simultaneously concentrate intensely while performing a physical activity AND remain in a relaxed state is unique and rare. Recall Grisha’s comment on “the releasing of all tension” that was accompanied by increased ability? I think his comments were about picado. Also, Aaron Schearer describes uncontrolled tension as a big problem in playing guitar, too. So whether it’s playing music, or a virtuoso performance on the basketball court, being able to enter this paradoxical state is a prerequisite for success.

Of course, there are plenty of examples of people playing well at home or to a small audience but who can’t play to a large audience or enter the world stage without becoming overwhelmed by—or at least having their ability to perform—affected by anxiety. On the other hand playing in front of an audience can lead to a break through, giving a person just enough of what they need emotionally to overcome barriers to good technique and move up to a higher level of ability.

Other research indicates that neurons have to vibrate at a certain frequency for a person to be able to perform an acquired skill. This would explain why some people who were able to play well sometimes perform poorly. I saw video of Yehudi Menuhin performing a solo piece and he was barely able to string a few notes together without making a mistake. This was after a divorce. I guess if he hadn’t gotten married again his career would have been over. People like him have to be in a clinging, pair-bonded, relationship to be able to maintain a functional baseline of relaxation. This is a complicated subject and so much can be said…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2009 4:19:24
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Pgh_flamenco) 
Oh yeah, I agree about the physical aspect of playing once you're at that level. With the hyperfocusing I was talking not about performing but about how one learns something they have a talent for, could be guitar, could be math. However I'd say a state of meditation and intense concentration on one specific thing could be called hyperfocusing, which is a medical term used with - ehhh - special people.

With anything else many talented people are total space cadets (one could even say slightly autistic, there IS a connection), partly because they're thinking about that one thing, all day, every day. I knew a computer science major once who told me one morning she went to class wearing two bras. Einstein flunked out of school because all he could concentrate on was physics.

Releasing the tension comes with the hours of practice that I'm sure Grisha put in too. Rafael Cortes also said once that a teacher can't show you how to do something to play well, you also have to put in the hours to figure it out for yourself. He used to bring his guitar to school with him and practice alone during the lunch break. That's what I mean by passion.

Performing live is something you can get used to and does take practice as well. People with stage fright of course have more problems than those who don't, but stubborn people with stage fright like me who keep forcing themselves to get on stage do get better. Anything that ruins your concentration or depression can give the best player a bad night. Heck I've had a bad night after a fight with my wife, I can imagine what a divorce could do. I've even seen Paco play on a bad night, though you'd hardly notice - but a couple of the picados in his solo piece didn't work at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2009 5:17:30
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

Usually people who have this talent with one thing aren't good at anything else and otherwise have a concentration deficit, touching on the subject from before about being a good salesman.


i haven't seen too much of this. but i can see it happening.

the kids i knew who were good at something usually were good at everything else they tried. this leads me to believe that it's about the mental approach they take to learning new things.

i believe the people who "get it" have a more effective approach, either physical or mental.

tension and performance anxiety can be improved if you think of it as a skill that you can work on. if someone is naturally good at performing, it's because they have a different mindset about it.

tension will definitely inhibit learning. in fact, i told my girlfriend to stop giving a **** about school and her grades went up and the work has been significantly easier for her! everyone performs better when relaxed.

i agree big time with john about passion. in the end, it's all about how much you want it. if you want it enough, you're GOING to get it. if your approach is slowing you down, you'll find a way around it because you want it. passion makes the job 90% easier, imo.

so going back, what the hell is talent? how do you measure or analyze it? i just think some people have a more supporting environment and a better approach, mentally or physically.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2009 6:11:09
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
quote:

so going back, what the hell is talent? how do you measure or analyze it? i just think some people have a more supporting environment and a better approach, mentally or physically.



This is also the whole idea of private schooling and the top Universities such as Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale.

People leave with the natural belief they are going to succeed.
That's why folk can leave with a Degree in History or Medicine, but can end up in totally unrelated well paid jobs such as Acting or running a MultiNational Company.
Total belief that not succeeding is not an option.

(Also a heap of bloody good ex-school contacts too. )

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2009 6:32:37
 
Wannabee

 

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ron.M) 
OK. Thanks. I'll try to do it right from now on.


This is just a generall comment from a student's perspective along the "being successful" theme.

I think that one reason JM was so successful is that he tried to focus on beginners.
He tried to write little easy pieces that anyone could play and then he tried to make them slowly increase in difficulty. He is not the only person to do this, but he was certainly better at it than say... the M. Granados books. They seem to increase in difficulty extremely fast. Way too fast for me and probably too fast for most beginners.

I think something more advanced players often forget is just how difficult it is for students. I think many teachers often mislead themselves into believing that students can play professional level falsettas right from the start. Just work on them slowly, bit by bit.

While these may be more interesting for the teacher, they turn out to be not so good for the student.

In my own case I've spent 3 years struggling with some very difficult bits of Solea and still can't play them right. I probably would have been much better served (as a student) to work on something like this:



Demographically speaking, there are a lot more beginners out there that might be inclined to pick up a Juan Martin book then there are advanced players who might choose something by Tomatito.

How many people actually attain the professional level of playing? I have no way of knowing, but a rough estimate might be 1/1000.
So if that is true, Juan Martin could sell 1000 books for every 1 of Tomatito.
(I'm just guessing at these numbers, so don't go nuts on me)


Anyway, just my 2 centimos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 0:00:56
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Wannabee) 
Especially in Spain it's difficult for teachers to judge what non-Spaniards are capable of doing. I have one student who was learning the basic Farruca compás from me and went to Spain to a "beginners" course where she learned a Fandango falseta from Paco de Lucia, way too difficult. The teacher's excuse was "It's all difficult"

You'll definitely get through to most people wanting to learn if you focus on the absolute beginners. JM is good for that, Graf-Martinez also. Oscar Herrero is really good too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 3:07:38
 
Wannabee

 

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.) 
Yes, I had a similar experience in Spain. and my teacher also said "it's all difficult" *_*
.
I think every teacher would do well to have at least 3 levels of each palo (or at least the most common palos) ready to teach students. If the teacher is unsure what the level of the student is, he can have the student play the graded pieces with a metronome. If the student can't do it, he needs to stay at that level for a while.

One more comment, I never really could get the feel of the solea compas from what I was being shown, and in order to play advanced falsettas well you really need to have a good feeling for the compas.

Off beat falsettas, glissandos up and down the neck, uneven syncopations...

these are not the best for teaching students how to count compas. ~_*
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 4:38:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
quote:

There are people who practice 12 hours a day and are bad and people who do the same and are great.


there's a quote about persistence, talent, genius and education etc. from Calvin Coolidge, seems relevant there;

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

but i think John O is right, that no amount of hard work will get you anywhere if you have no talent

i think of talent not as some kind of magic thing that some people have and some don't (though it kind of is that too!), but as potential, and that everyone has some potential, but that some have more than others. With zero potential and a lot of application someone will probably only ever be mediocre.... but so will someone with lots of potential and no application whatsoever.




quote:

He was on crack because of cold hands.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 9:49:59
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.


Speaking of persistence and tenacity leading to achievement, in the nineteenth century, Benjamin Disraeli, who, though he converted in his teens, was born Jewish, became British Prime Minister in a era when it was unheard of – impossible really – for anyone of Jewish heritage to reach such a position. He was once asked how he did it in spite of the formidable obstacles to such an achievement. His answer was "constancy of purpose."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 10:51:55
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to mark indigo) 
I think what's important is what exactly is being done 12 hours a day, touching on what at_leo_87 said about effective approach. I read an interview with Tomatito where he said the 10 hours of practice a day he did involved few technique exercizes, he was just playing for the enjoyment of it. Taking the time to simply play things you enjoy is VERY important. I believe this is when you focus the most on what you're doing and actually improving the most. Otherwise you're doing the same thing the same wrong way for hours a day and not improving - hurts more than it helps.

If I practice only technique for hours a day, my joints get stiff, I get bored, I can't play anything but technique exercises - and even the latter is questionable, because when I get bored practice does absolutely nothing for me because I'm not concentrating on it. That's why I do no more than an hour of straight technique a day, if that, otherwise I play falsetas I enjoy which concentrate on the most important techniques and do repetitions playing compás inbetween. This is good for technique and it's exactly what I do performing, so two birds with one stone. Also even after 5-6 hours of practice I'm not bored and my joints don't hurt.

There was one guitarist I knew who practiced like crazy but had a sort of neurological problem that could render him unable to perform certain techniques at any time. Eventually he gave up. I could think of nothing more frustrating. Made me feel bad, he was a good guitarist and I liked him.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 10:56:32
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.) 
quote:

I read an interview with Tomatito where he said the 10 hours of practice a day he did involved few technique exercizes, he was just playing for the enjoyment of it.


was he saying that he still practices/plays like this? i read an interview with Tomatito where he said he played 10 hours a day when he was a kid, but never played exercises or studies, just played music he liked.... i wonder though if that has stayed the same throughout his career?

i know Paco de Lucia has said he never has to think about technique anymore, but we know he practised a lot of that stuff when he was quite young, and there is at least one exercise (string crossing) that has come from him.

and Gerardo Nuñez has an interesting approach to technique, as demonstrated in his Encuentro vid, which is to make up very musical studies for practising technique, and to use falsetas which focus on particular techiniques

here's another thought to consider, that came from a performance coach, that amateurs practise what they already do well, and professionals practise to improve their weak points
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 12:57:07
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to mark indigo) 
It was the Encuentro interview where I read that from Tomatito, he said it's not 10 anymore, more like around 3 nowadays.

My weak point has always been picado, this is the only dry technique I practice at the moment. Everything else works as long as I keep it warm, but fast, long picados have always a problem for me. I've been working hard on the 3-finger picado, which is good for simple runs, but just doesn't have the strength or control the i-m picado has.

I need to have a daily routine to keep everything up and if I spend too much time on technique exercizes it's easy for me to get lost in them. I always look for falsetas for picado, pulgar, arpeggio, rasgueado for all the most common flamenco keys and try to practice them for an even amount of time. There are more than enough falsetas I love in all palos that I can improve on, that and a metronome and I'm busy enough the whole day...

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2009 15:11:01
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