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RE: soundportparty in my patio
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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 RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to TANúñez)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TANúñez
Ok. I'm going to through in my 2 euros even though it's not needed as this thread should have been over a long time ago.
In my opinioin or observation, and I hope I don't pi$$ anybody off because I'm only speaking for myself, but to me based from one guitar with port that I have played and based by Jason's video, I want to say that the soundport is only for the player and not the listener. It does not change the sound or make it better for the listener but only for the player. When Jason had the mic farther away I could not tell a difference. When he moved the mic up closer to where your head would be if playing, I noticed an increase in volume but not much more.
I don't think it really changes the sound of your guitar or make it better overall but it does make it better for you as a player because you can hear the sound more directly. Am I right by saying this? is anyone angry at me? am I totally wrong and need to go build a guitar with a soundport?
I have this feeling that the guitar is losing some sound with a port. Only because you have this box full of air pumping all around and shooting out with force through the soundhole. Now if you add another hole, it seems like it would lose power because it has another hole to disperse through. This is just my observation. Someone is probably angry with me now. Just keep in mind that I have very little, and I mean little experience with soundports.
I have a negra that I'm working on in which the sides are not bent yet. Maybe I should try a soundport?
Tom, it changes the inner dynamic of the voice of the guitar and this is not an indication that the sound stays the same.
When I tune my guitars, it's for the voice and articulation, not as an alteration to over-ride this facility but to allow certain sound collectivity to homoginize into the top before the sound escapes through the guitar's top. When sound becomes too rapid in its transfer, it alters the character of the tone.
Some players don't mind losing some tone quality to achieve volume, but how much tonal sacrifice are we willing to accept for added volume when it only involves the player. Obviously some people don't think it matters.
When a guitar is tuned properly the whole instrument should vibrate like a living organism and this sensitivity is linked to the player who feels its response with all of his senses.
But many guitars aren't tuned right, or they are built too heavy, and this has gotten some builders active in trying to promote certain alterations that make up for this lack of open-ended tonal quality that surrounds the player's senses.
I have never played a venue that was too loud for my guitar in close quarters.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 18 2009 19:29:15
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JasonMcGuire
Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
Some players don't mind losing some tone quality to achieve volume, but how much tonal sacrifice are we willing to accept for added volume when it only involves the player. Obviously some people don't think it matters.
There is no tonal sacrifice after the ports were added to both my guitars. They were both fantastic guitars before the ports and many, many people ordered guitars from Glenn after playing them even before the ports were installed. Since Glenn and I are close, he always sends people over to play the guitars he has built for me. I asked Glenn to install the ports in my cedar negra and he agreed to do it. We both really liked it, so he offered to do it in my blanca. We loved that as well. He is getting ready to build me a Spruce/Brazilian negra. I will have him put a port. Although, he still has reservations himself about ports and will only do them by request.
In fact, the ONLY guitars Glenn has put sound ports in are mine. All of his other guitars have been without. Glenn hasn't been building very long and the fact that he has developed a waiting list of well over a year and was able to quit his day job after such a short time building is a testament to how good his guitars actually are. I know it makes a lot of other guitar builders jealous and it would make me jealous if I was a builder. At the same time Glenn is very respectful of other makers and in fact has learned much from speaking with other makers like Tom Blackshear, Lester Devoe, Alan Perlman,Greg Byers and Eric Monrad.
I am not aware of any owners of Glenn's guitars who are unhappy with their instruments and I hear about many people who have purchased guitars from Glenn who regularly call and email him to thank him for building them such wonderful instruments. There was one guy who did send a blanca back and his reasoning was that the guitar sounded "too big, too loud". What a wing nut!!!
There are at least 4 local players here in SF who are owners of Lester Devoe and Tom Blackshear guitars that immediately got on the waiting list after playing Glenn's guitars (before the ports were added 2 months or so ago). For a maker do build a business like that within just 3 years says a lot. I have done my best to inform people of my opinions of Glenn's guitars, but for his business to take off like it has really means that there is truly something special about his instruments. I have had MANY makers approach me to play their guitars. I could have gotten myself a boatload of free guitars if I was into that sort of thing. I didn't like the guitars so I said no. Glenn never approached me to endorse his guitars. He simply came to my house for a guitar lesson with his first guitar. I asked him who the builder was because it sounded so good. He humbly said it was his own guitar and that he built it after being dissappointed with a guitar a friend brought him back from Spain. That's how our relationship got started.
I will state it clearly here and anywhere else for that matter. I think Glenn's guitars are the VERY best that I have played and they for me bring out the best in MY playing. I have said that I think they are magical. With or without ports his guitars inspire me. If anyone here is trying to imply that Glenn's guitars are only good because of the port or the reason I had him put in a port is because the guitar had problems before hand just isn't true. The fact is that I am the type of guy (like Anders) who likes to experiment for the sake of experimentation. I made Glenn add ports to my guitars because after hearing a blanca with a port built by local maker Stephen Faulk(another VERY talented maker who learned from Gene Clark), I felt it could make Glenn's guitars sound even better, at least from the player's perspective. Believe me. There is no tonal sacrifice, no loss of power, no loss of projection..... no negative impact whatsoever unless you are turned off by how the ports look. I am with Anders. I like how they look, because I know and love what they do. Glenn's guitars can hold their own and then some against ANY guitars out there with or without ports.
You seem a little grumpy TomB. What gives? Why do you insist on insulting other guitar makers like that? Don't you get enough business at this point in your career?
Wow, this soundport thing has been way more contoversial than I thought when I first jumped into the fray. Anders, you are a troublemaker.
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Date Jul. 18 2009 23:18:16
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
quote:
But many guitars aren't tuned right, or they are built too heavy, and this has gotten some builders active in trying to promote certain alterations that make up for this lack of open-ended tonal quality that surrounds the player's senses.
Tom with all due respect thats a litlle bit presumptious thing to say...u are pressuming to know what goes on in everyones head who builds a guitar with a soundport and not only that but indirectly saying that its because the guitar is tuned wrong to begin with or lacking something....you are turning your dissaprof of a certain alteration into a fault...and i dont think its that at all, i still think its a adavancement...atleast from a players prespective...i dont know any guitarist who dosent wanna hear themselfs louder and hear each detail of every sound or note he plays as much as possible...
now how is someone who builds a guitar with a soundport meant to take those comments ? can you see why they would be offended ? while u are entitled to try whatever things u like on your guitars so are they...and they dont deserve to be dismissed because of it..feel free to state why u dont think its a good idea...with facts (other then i dont like the way it looks or it dosent make it louder just for the guitarist...yeah..i know..its exactly what i want )by all means but i would refrain from making judgement calls on why others are doing it..because unless you can read minds...and have played every single guitar with a soundport and before it had a soundport...u are just speculating
a litlle professional courtesy never hurt anyone..even if you yourself dont belive in this adjustment or wouldnt do it
and again if a player like Jason who is also well trained on audio and what sound should be, and knows what hes looking for, has one or 2 and wants more...well u best belive that there is something to it..hes not exactly silly..neither is Grisha and neither is Anders...and after hearing the difference for myself neither am I (..all tho..dont put money on that last one )
again no disrespect to you , i am sure you make wonderfull guitars DonS says nice things about it..but this kind of public forum affects your guys bussineses directly...u dont wanna go having a war of words of directly or indirectly dissmissing eachother in front of potential customers because it can go both ways...wouldnt be good for any of you...theres alot more to be gained from showing professional courtesy..
but this is just my opinion...at the end of the day it dosent affect me one way or the other..i dont lose any money...and i still have to pay for my guitars
You don't see me attacking any builder's talent for their quality but an addition that is subjective and lends certain thoughts toward being better when all it does is to increase volume to the player, to some degree.
If that's what some players want, then they have the perfect right to try it out.
This addition has the tendency to bring the player inside the guitar and I tune my guitars to have a certain inner dimensional sound that needs a traditional approach. I hope this makes sense. If all a player sees, hears, and feels, is that more volume is better, then it has its place.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 19 2009 3:55:34
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
quote:
When a guitar is tuned properly the whole instrument should vibrate like a living organism and this sensitivity is linked to the player who feels its response with all of his senses.
But many guitars aren't tuned right, or they are built too heavy, and this has gotten some builders active in trying to promote certain alterations that make up for this lack of open-ended tonal quality that surrounds the player's senses.
I´m very glad that Florian responded on this one before I read it. It makes me relax more. I totally agree with what Florian has written.
The way you write shows me that you have absolutely no respect for people/builders doing things in another way than yours. Only your way is the right way. You´ve been here for around 15 month and right from the start you have proven to be so. In the start you tried to make people think that building anything else than the Reyes plan that you improved would be the same as being a total idiot. Every other plan was full of fault and guitars made from other plans were inferior. The fact that some players prefered to play Condes, Reyes, Canin, DeVoe, Eliasson etc. was in your narrowminded head only because they didnt know better and hadnt tried any of your improved Reyes designs.
Now you have a go again and constantly arguing against what you think is not good and this in the most disrespectal way. I dont even think you know much about soundports or if you have tried some, your have been so prejudiced that you havent been able to really listen to what you had in your hands. You dont have to like soundports and you dont have to build a guitar to prove anything. You just have to accept that in the world there are players and builders who dont agree with what is true for you.
On forums like this, it sometimes happens that some people dont get along. It has happened here a couple of times and now it is happening again. I simply cant stand you, what you stand for and the way you behave. I´m not afraid of saying these things. I believe its better to get it out so that everyone knows why some threads end up with hard discussions. This way, the community has a chance to react before things get out of hand.
I will try to leave you in peace and maybe you could try to do so as well. But if you start being disrespectfull towards me or other builders I will tell you to stop in my way, which you already know very well.
I´ve been a member of this community for 6 years (I changed my login name 3 years ago) and I´ve never had any problems with anyone. I´ve had hard discussions with someone, but nothing that we couldnt "repair" privately. And some of these people have ended up being amongst the members that I respect the most. But you are to far out, so please dont send me any mails, PM´s etc.
Maybe, if we behave, there´ll be enough space for everyone.
Anders
For a number of reasons it is better not to respond to your posts. I don't think your command of the English language is good enough to understand many things I write here.
Also, I think you have not had the opportunity to dialog with a person who, although is a maker of flamenco guitars for 50 years and has accumulated vast knowledge about the art, and will come to a list like this and share his knowledge, without prejudice, for you to be able to realize my intentions as honorable.
And this makes it a little awkward when you can't see past your own prejudice and realize that I don't dislike you.
I think it would be better if you discuss the issues at hand rather than attacking the person who is addressing his side of the issue. What you are falling into is the point of which chisel to use rather than how it is used. If you can't explain it, then do yourself a favor and don't rant about a person's character; this only lowers your own status as a person, and maker of fine guitars.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 19 2009 4:44:07
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
quote:
For a number of reasons it is better not to respond to your posts. I don't think your command of the English language is good enough to understand many things I write here.
Also, I think you have not had the opportunity to dialog with a person who, although is a maker of flamenco guitars for 50 years and has accumulated vast knowledge about the art, will come to a list like this and share his knowledge, and this makes it a little awkward when you can't see past your own prejudice and realize that I don't dislike you.
I think it would be better if you discuss the issues at hand rather than attacking the person who is addressing his side of the issue. What you are falling into is the point of which chisel to use rather than how it is used. If you can't explain it, then do yourself a favor and don't rant about a person's character; this only lowers your own status as a person, and maker of fine guitars.
Of course you know the Enlish language better than me. But I think my English is good enough to understand the babble you write and besides, its so typically you to start patronizing and again saying that you are far better, know everything better, write better and of course are capable to use the English language better than me. If you prefer we can continue in Danish or Spanish where I might have a bigger chance of understanding the debth of your inmense wisdom.
We can also just leave it. because most probably it´ll be waste of time. I´m not interested in you, the nonsense you write or your 50 years of making flamenco guitars. To me you are just and ONLY an annoying part of foroflamenco. Nothing else dude.
I will only respond to your posts if you continue your disrespectfull way of talking about people who happens to have another idea or vision of their guitars and life itself. So maybe you could come to a point where I´m not important to you and leave me and what I do in peace? I dont care about if you like or dislike me. You dont have to like me. I dont like you. 
Well, you have the advantage, as I'm not going there. Have a nice life..........
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jul. 19 2009 5:36:31
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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A couple comments/questions:
1. I like the idea of a little cage in the sound port. Anyone want to go into business with me marketing Flamenco Mice?
Maybe we can use only the finest Andalucian mice, or if Ricardo Montalban was still around we could have Corinthian mice...
The main question is what will the customers want more? Palmas, jaleos or cante mice?
2. How can anyone empirically assess with any accuracy what happens with the sound port?
Obviously, what the player hears is not the same as what the audience in front to the instrument hears, and changing the player will make the guitar sound different (in experimental design this is called a confound).
The only thing I could imagine is if you recorded with two mics of the same make/model/batch recording from in front and above/behind and then, without changing the players position swapped the mics and recorded again and listened to playback...
Still, I think the soundport's primary appeal is that the player gets to hear more, as usually the sound is being projected in a direction away from the ears of the player.
If someone bought one so that they could only play for/to themselves, the value of this, and the choices/opinions made seem to be highly subjective.
But if you're not working in a recording studio and not performing, subjective seems just fine. Doesn't it? Most choices are anyway, so why all the fuss?
Anyway, IMO Anders has managed to make his look aesthetically pleasing enough. I'll buy one as soon as I win the lottery. 
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Date Jul. 19 2009 15:32:48
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Guest
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
You dont have to like me. I dont like you.
lol, thats gold...reminds me of grade 2 arguments with the addition of funny smiley faces
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Date Jul. 19 2009 20:14:44
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Guest
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
my dad is stronger than your dad.
lol, good one Anders. At least now the thread has gone down a more lighthearted avenue  But never forget the all time K.O and that is this: If someone says something insulting to you like 'your a stinky breath!' just come back with 'YOOUUUUU ARRREEEE'...how can they recover from that ****, they cant.
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Date Jul. 19 2009 23:06:50
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RE: soundportparty in my patio (in reply to at_leo_87)
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Are you kidding me??!!! Over here, nipple cripples and chinese burns were pretty much unheard of until at least grade 4.
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Date Jul. 19 2009 23:53:29
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) but u said it better lol 
Again looking forward to trying out a Canin as well as an Anders which I've been trying to do for awhile now. 
