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Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
Hi, I'm no expert but I think that is often called an "extra six" here on the forum. I just put "extra sixes" in the search box above and got several explanations. Hopefully this helps ya.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
quote:
Is there any traditional explanation for this?
Media compas. Quite normal in bulerias, especially in bulerias de Jerez. The way the player does it in the beginning of the video feels a bit uncomfortable, but its normal.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
Don´t complicate it to much.. I get a headache from these special words..... :./
Well,.. Adam del Monte says some interesting things about compas but don't really nail the buleria de Jerez thing down there... Check it out. Interesting without doubt:
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Doitsujin)
Add six, drop six, either way it is a common thing. You should get to a point to were you are ALWAYS thinking in terms of sixes regardless of the phrasing you are using, it really makes all of this pretty easy to deal with. It also makes for a very cool and unpredictable feel and that really is the big pay off...... keeping bulerias unpredictable and fresh, yet funky and comfortable. Sixes are a good thing.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to XXX)
The palmas DON"T PLAY THE ACCENTS. The palmas are like a hi-hat on the drum set. A time keeper. What palmas play in bulerias are x,1,2,3,4,5, x,7,8,9,10,11 x= silence or a foot on the floor. beats 3 and 9 are emphasized normally. When you have at least one person playing this pattern, then another person can do really cool stuff against it, or just double that pattern.
When palmas are played in this way. The 2 different sides of the compas are equal. Here is a recorded example.....
In the Zambos example there is a second played against the one I mention above in which the 1 gets replaced by a counter time (or up-beat) before 2. Still the basic pattern that most of the people are playing here is the basic one I described above.
Palmas played this way makes playing extra sixes or drop sixes or whatever you want to call them a non-issue. That is what Romeritio is getting at when he says bulerias IS IN SIX.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Thanks- good tip. I usually use the really strong beat-3 to follow another player or recording. That's how i found the 6 beat difference- the 9s started sounding just like 3s.
BTW- I think ive met you before. I was at SMU from 95 to 98 and one of the grad students (Jake) brought you to visit the guitarists.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Ailsa)
Ailsa.....
People are taught the concept of 12,3,7,8,10 or 6,8,10 and are encouraged to feel that as the rhythmic template that bulerias operates on top of. However, it is not the correct way to play palmas in bulerias. Knowing where your accents are and playing palmas are two completely different subjects.
Now, I have to tread carefully here about wether or not I say it is wrong. Your teacher may have a deeper purpose for you in playing that pattern. For example, they may want to drill that into your head so that down the road you know where things are instinctively. So, instead of saying that it is wrong, I will say that it is a stepping stone in the direction of being able to play "grown up" palmas in bulerias. When in doubt, listen to the pro's. Do they ever play the 12,3,7,8,10 pattern you mentioned? I can't really think of a recording in which that is what is being played. Here is another example..
Hi Chiste, I studied a little with Robert Guthrie at SMU in the late 1980's, I was considering going to college there, but decided against it ultimately. I have never taught there. It must have been another flamenco guitarist with long blonde hair..... maybe I forgot though.
at_leo,
I am sorry that it is confusing you.....
But you are right in the way you have described it. 12 and 6 are typically a FOOT on the floor, but the foot can work in 2's, 3s and other things as well. Where the PALMAS accent is 1 (although it is softer that 3 usually) and 3, .......7,9 on the backside.
What people are confusing is the fact that NO ONE HAS TO PLAY THE 12,3,7,8,10 accents. That is a description of a rhythmic template that helps students learn. In practice artists do VERY different things. Take off the training wheels and have some fun with the freedom that bulerias offers you. I honestly think that the manner in which teachers strictly enforce the 12,3,7,8,10 accents can be detrimental to a students success. Artists in Spain DO NOT LEARN THIS WAY. They learn by hanging out around other artists and playing palmas with them. If you want to fit in in THAT kind of situation ( AND BELIEVE ME YOU DO) sorry for screaming. Spend years playing in the midst of other good artists this pattern ONLY.
x,1,2,3,4,5 x,7,8,9,10,11
Let other people do all of the fancy stuff. Watch them and stockpile a library of cool palmas licks. One day, a few years down the road you will begin to play the fancy stuff (perhaps), or be even smarter and keep the basic pattern still even though you know how to do the other. The stronger the base the cooler ther countertime stuff sounds. Remember the cardinal rule in flamenco is to support your neighbor.
Okay, okay.... I decided to make a little video demonstration and give a goofy lecture on the concept. I hope it helps.....
Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
WOw. Awesome tutorial video. Thanks so much for posting that! People here have been asking for basic palmas guidance for a long time. FOr some reason, nobody until now has done it.
I remember a post from RIcardo awhile back where he said he hates it when somebody plays palmas on the 3 6 8 10 accents and said he prefers them to play just what you showed.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
jason.... you're the MAN! thanks so much for taking the time to make that video. that was so cool. seriously!
i took so much time to pound the 12,3,6,8,10 into my head only to have to unlearn it. how weird and frustrating. one step backward, two steps forward, repeat.
is accenting the 12/6 acceptable too? the silent 12/6 is a bit tricky.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
quote:
Okay, okay.... I decided to make a little video demonstration and give a goofy lecture on the concept. I hope it helps.....
Good decision! Great video! Very useful!
EDIT: Dont delete it whatever happens! Im on the way to record a bulerias and want to check it out again a little later. The combination at the end of your video was pretty nice.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to at_leo_87)
quote:
is accenting the 12/6 acceptable too? the silent 12/6 is a bit tricky
Use your foot to play 12 and 6. If you play 12 and 6 you will be robbing the opportunity for the person doing the "fancy stuff" to phrase things. Now if you want to do a 12 or 6 every once in a while to keep things fresh. Thats cool.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
That video's great - thanks!
When I was in Jerez I got lessons with Santiago Moreno, who said exactly the same - then when I was out watching things I did notice no-one played the 12 3 6 8 10 but played it that way. It does seem to free everything up, as you can keep the feel of the accents on the guitar,
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
Cool.. I thought he was great - I'm still working on the stuff he taught me and would love to get him over here to do a workshop or something. Did you see him during the festival in March?
Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Jenny)
actually i've never been to Jerez, he came to Budapest twice as the lady i used to accompany is friends with him and she organized these courses...now she moved there so i'll have to go there next time...i only saw him on videos accompanying his sister...i've forgotten most of the stuff he taught, but it's not really the falsetas i wanted to learn from him, more like approach and technique...
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Oh my goodness, thank you Maestro! I learned more in that couple of minutes than perhaps a whole year of floundering around. I was one of those guys doing palmas to the straight accents with occasional funky bits, I now know much better and won't embarrass myself further! But the floundering did allow my brain to be finally receptive to it...
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
jason, masterful explanation of bulerias compas, i had worked a lot of the six stuff out from accompanying bulerias learnt from la chiqui de jerez, and from a lot of listening to jerez artists, bulerias a palo seco etc., but i don't think i had it quite right as you explain it.
one question, in the first video in the first post, and in a lot of older recordings, the palmas is x, 1, 2, x, 4, 5, x, 7, 8, x, 10, 11, just three's basically, but obviously it works in sixes, and the sixes work for phrases of twelve too. Would you say that this older "base" palmas compas been replaced by the x,1,2,3,4,5 x,7,8,9,10,11 that you describe/explain?
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
Another Jason comment request:
In the intro of the video I posted at the start of this thread, I think the guitarist starts on beat 2, and seems to play syncopated against the compas.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
The first touch on the guitar is actually the contra before 2 AKA the "and of 1". It is one of THE most common places to begin. Morao is doing a common type of phrasing for that time. Cool stuff.
About the palmas in the video ...... they are often doing what I mentioned in my video, x 1 2 3 4 5 x 7 8 9 10 11
but because of when this video was filmed (bulerias was played WAY faster in those days) they were also doing that typical "waltz feel" pattern in the palmas.....
x 1 2 x 4 5 x 7 8 x 10 11
This "waltz feel" is also symetrical as far as extra sixes are concerned. I guess this also proves that Paco de Lucia definitely did not invent the extra six.
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
Thanks, Jason! I've saved your posts from this thread. It's really clarified palmas in buleria for me. What was the word you used in your video to describe the 1, 3, 5 accents as the base for palmas?
BTW I enjoyed the vids on Glenn's guitars and plan on watching them again. Were you a little tipsy during these vids? If so maybe I'll have a cold one next time I watch them.
Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Does Bulerias ever skip 6 beats? (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire
but because of when this video was filmed (bulerias was played WAY faster in those days) they were also doing that typical "waltz feel" pattern in the palmas.....
x 1 2 x 4 5 x 7 8 x 10 11
This "waltz feel" is also symetrical as far as extra sixes are concerned.
The "waltz feel" !!!! yes!!! I'm enlightened Master....
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i feel like at second 10 at least one person is out. 
[I need a smiley with a light bulb going on over my head!) 
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