RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo" from Paco de Lucia's Album "Luzia"

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RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo" from Paco de Lucia's Album "Luzia" - Falsetas 1 to 3

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duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to jg7238)

quote:

sorry, what do you mean ?... i dont understand

tssssssssssss..

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2009 22:49:12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2009 23:59:05

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 0:03:36

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to duende)

Ruben is discussing music, flamenco, etc. and explains his own views in a general manner. However some forum members when felt hopeless, cornered or offended resort to attacking Ruben personally.

In other words: Hey you are trying to shoot the messenger!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 1:50:21

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

I dont need to make a living with the guitar,and then have to flatter others to do a bussines,or to say they are ok.when they are not,etc.

Ruben...... is this an accusation directed at anyone in particular?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 1:50:30

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

However some forum members when felt hopeless, cornered or offended resort to attacking Ruben personally.

i must have missed that part...who is attacking him ?..seems to me like everyone is just slowly aand carefully tip toing backwoods towards the exit door....giving ruben all the space he needs

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 1:57:28

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Florian)

I don't feel hopeless or cornered....... offended?.......perhaps. I am waiting for the reply.

J

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 2:09:54

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

nature of teaching and learning (in reply to Guest)

Dear Ruben, I am interested in some of the things you have said.

quote:

To learn guitar properly again, in my opinion, one HAVE to accept a particular teacher and line or style.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Different teachers have different skills; perhaps some can explain technique or structure very clearly, others might teach you music that you love, others might help you play with aire. Don't I want to learn whatever is each teacher's strength?

quote:

But what I see nowadays is that, far away from accepting a teacher, people want to be their own teacher

I think there is a sense in which every student must teach themselves - with guidance from those with skill, yes. But we each have to be responsible for our own learning. We have to seek out what it is we want to learn and go and find that for ourselves.

Thanks too for the bulerias tapado that you uploaded recently. I learnt it from the video and am practising it. Thank you.

Ailsa

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 2:10:56

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

I don't feel hopeless or cornered....... offended?.......perhaps. I am waiting for the reply.

J

Jason, everyone here knows you as a fine artist who has given generously to the students on this Foro. It's not even worth your time to be offended.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 2:14:53

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

quote:

However some forum members when felt hopeless, cornered or offended resort to attacking Ruben personally.

i must have missed that part...who is attacking him ?..seems to me like everyone is just slowly aand carefully tip toing backwoods towards the exit door....giving ruben all the space he needs

Ok, here is an example:

quote:

"I respect a good player, especially when they interact in our forum... But I do believe Ruben is being a bit closed minded. Not only that but disrespectful towards other players... "

That's not a snippet of the post, that's the whole post.
What has it got to do with art, teaching guitar, styles of flamenco? It's only aim is to attack Ruben.

Another example:

quote:

A forum as defined by West's Encyclopedia of American Law is: A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas.

Socrates once said, "I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of Human Excellence is to question oneself and others."

So far so good. He is discussing matters in a general manner, but then continues:

quote:

It's really not that complicated, but I don't think you get it, and sadly may not?

Here he feels that what he already said didn't do the justice so tries to offend Ruben personally.

Anyway you get the picture.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 2:28:30

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

I don't feel hopeless or cornered....... offended?.......perhaps. I am waiting for the reply.

I was not referring to you at all. You are one of the friendliest and nicest forum members.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 2:33:34

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Ailsa)

Alisa, I do appreciate your support and have always been moved by the grace in which you are able to put yourself across on this forum. But in this case, I feel as though there were statements made by Mr. Ruben

that might have been intended to in some way discredit the online teachers mentioned by Arash...... Adam del Monte, Ricardo and myself namely.

So the case is that I await Mr.Ruben's

answer to my question before I decide wether or not I am offended. The question was evaded when I asked the first time.

quote:

I dont need to make a living with the guitar,and then have to flatter others to do a bussines,or to say they are ok.when they are not,etc.

Is this an accusation directed at anyone in particular?

Now in defense of Mr.Ruben

who despite his abrasive use of the English language is a brilliant player and I would say that, yes, he does have much to offer students of flamenco guitar and I do wish him much success in aquiring more "webcam" students to supplement his lack of necessity for financial gain from the guitar as well as continued success teaching the technique and composition of Paco de Lucia.

Paco has been over the past couple of years releasing official books that show in detail how his works are played. They seem to be moving along in cronological order, so the material for Luzia must be a good ways down that road, but it does show that Paco de Lucia DOES in fact place a price on the educational nature of his compositions. As Mr.Ruben has stated he has clearance from Paco de Lucia and the publishing company to teach this material and just as he has been forthcoming about his nationality, professorship and lack of need for money, I am sure that there is nothing for RGB Arte Visual (publisher) or Juan Estrada (Manager) to worry about.

I myself feel that Paco de Lucia is quite possibly the greatest living flamenco guitarist in the world today. I have also met Paco myself and found him to be a surprizingly warm and softspoken person.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 3:15:13

Jaquarda

Posts: 17
Joined: Mar. 2 2007
From: Austin, Texas

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to duende)

quote:

Another example:

quote:

A forum as defined by West's Encyclopedia of American Law is: A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas.

Socrates once said, "I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of Human Excellence is to question oneself and others."

So far so good. He is discussing matters in a general manner, but then continues:

quote:

It's really not that complicated, but I don't think you get it, and sadly may not?

Here he feels that what he already said didn't do the justice so tries to offend Ruben personally.

Anyway you get the picture.

No personal offense was meant. Just a little engaging dialogue. It's pretty clear to me that Ruben doesn't tolerate any views except his own, and when questioned by others (like in an open forum) he takes it as a personal attack and goes on the defensive.

Anyway you get the picture.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 3:19:21

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

ok Mike i see what you saying but none of your examples are acctually attacking Ruben personally..they way he choses to interact perhaps but not personally

again its a discussion forum..if Ruben is not prepared that everything he says will be discussed just like with everything anyone else says here..i dont know what to suggest cause we discuss , dispute, ask questions and argue everything here...hes gonna have a though time...You know ..everyone was really happy to see him when he first made this post..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 3:20:29

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to duende)

i think most of us , are all sensitive souls

best we dont think too much about it anymore and get back to playing and enjoy the music , Everyone of us has something unique to offer, if where beginner or advanced who cares,

best to be open minded , maybe we all have intellectualized a little too much on this, Ruben Excellent bulerias falsetas .......brilliant playing and value many of the things you have mentioned.

of course we all have different tastes -------sometimes the same........

lets to put the passion back in to praising each other and constructive criticism and of course for the development of us personally and as a flamenco foro family.

im a teacher and i love it, also i love flamenco lets relax and get back into it.

cool

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 3:28:35

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to minordjango)

I am relaxing and awaiting an answer to my question for Ruben.

....I played 3 concerts (1500 seats...sold out each one), 1 private fundraiser for a preschool for underpriveledged children and taught 5 private lessons and still managed to host a birthday party for mr dear friend Felix de Lola tonight..... all in the course of this weekend (2 days). I will be in the recording studio again tomorrow recording for Felix's CD. I haven't slowed down on the creativity as a result the direction Ruben has taken this thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 3:47:42

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ok Mike i see what you saying but none of your examples are acctually attacking Ruben personally.

I think they do

, but to be fair Ruben also did same thing in another thread.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 4:10:51

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

Jason,

I feel Prof Ruben is maybe a devotee of the "Indian Classical" Guru/Student style of teaching where the Student is required to "surrender" completely to the Master's instructions and NOT ask why they are being given certain exercises to practise etc.

Ravi Shankar spoke about this in his autobiography and actually seemed to approve of this style of teaching due to the sheer amount of technique and theory required to play Sitar at Master level.

In fact potential students were taken on at 8 or 10 years old and in fact lived in the Master's house where they would cook and clean for him and generally act as servants for the next 12 years or so.
They were also regularly beaten with a cane for not practising enough or sleeping too much!!

Also in a documentary I saw about Medical School some years ago, it seemed like this "Just learn by rote....Don't ask why" method of teaching was used in the Student's first year or two.
Many would drop out due to the relentless amount of data they had to absorb.
The lecturers again said that this method was the only way of putting across such a large amount of basic knowledge.
I don't know if that is still true these days, perhaps Ramzi or others could confirm.

Certainly when I was in hospital last year, the Student Doctors were treated in a really offhand manner by the Senior Consultants and in a way that would certainly not be tolerated by very many of us at work.

So I guess maybe Prof Ruben is maybe a firm believer in this method and won't be swayed from that view, so maybe his views come across as arrogant, when really he doesn't mean to be?

Best policy for everyone IMO would be to not to get too involved with arguing about his beliefs and method, but just to take advantage of the bits and pieces of his excellent uploads that are helful without having to subscribe to the philosophy of "The Method".

I dunno...I'm just trying to keep the peace here.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 4:26:47

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Ron.M)

That was a very duende post Ron

Lets jtry to get the best side out of everyone each, and not too much conenctrate on what annoys us. We all are here only for sharing our views and stuff and learning other's views and stuff. I wouldnt want to miss neither Rubens nor Jasons nor anybody else's posts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 4:39:10

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron,

I am aware of this manner of learning. I played the Sitar a bit years ago and the tabla player I spent much time collaborating with was also a guitar student of mine. He had also been a former student of Zakir Hussain.

I appreciate you keeping the peace, but I am waiting to hear a reply from Mr.Ruben in regards to a possible accusation of less that ethical behaviour that may have been directed at one or more long time members of this forum.

Professor Ruben Diaz will certainly have this all cleared up soon as I am sure even if he has been taught by means of flogging and brutality that he realizes that people do have a right to question such statements.

If I get do out of hand, I will completely understand if you have to ban me for a while to teach me a lesson.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 4:51:24

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

to teach me a lesson.

No YOU teach us a lesson or two, i.e. how about granting me a one month of free subscription to your online tutorials.

By the way don't you ever sleep?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 5:05:51

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to duende)

It's too bad the situation got a bit out of hand here- we don't have many guitarists at the professional/academic level on the Foro so a new one is really a valuable addition and I would have hoped for them all to get along with each other. :(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 5:18:42

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

I am going to sleep great tomorrow night......

quote:

No YOU teach us a lesson or two, i.e. how about granting me a one month of free subscription to your online tutorials.

If you want a free month. Here is a deal.....
part1: send me a PM about your financial situation and why you can't afford $30. If it sounds good or is overwhelmingly humorous I will consider it.

part2: Play one of Professor Ruben's lessons with socks on both hands while wearing pajamas and video it and post it here on this thread. If it sounds good.

.....I'll do it.
I promise.

Matic and Rombsix can give you pointers on the socks technique and which types of socks work best in this situation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 5:21:09

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

If you want a free month. Here is a deal.....
part1: send me a PM about your financial situation and why you can't afford $30. If it sounds good or is overwhelmingly humorous I will consider it.

part2: Play one of Professor Ruben's lessons with socks on both hands while wearing pajamas and video it and post it here on this thread. If it sounds good. .....I'll do it.
I promise.

After a second thought I think I might be able to afford it. Thanks for the generous consideration Jason.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 5:58:31

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Bulerias "El Chorruelo"... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

Matic and Rombsix can give you pointers on the socks technique and which types of socks work best in this situation

And Ron: It is partially true about the first 2 years of medical school...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 6:47:58

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 7:13:07

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 9:13:12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 9:28:16

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: my reply................. (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I do not accept you as an authority on guitar either,I am sorry, but I do not consider yourself as enough, to be regarded as a teacher, that is on the level of MY teachers

Wow, who are your teachers if I may ask?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2009 10:33:20

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