deliberate practice

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deliberate practice

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ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006

deliberate practice

just finished reading geoff colvin's book "talent is overrated" which draws largely from anders ericsson's study on top performers and deliberate practice. i know that the latter study has been discussed on the forum before.

the gist is that talent if it exists, may not be much of a factor, and if all the great performers are looked at the one thing they have in common is a brutal, exacting, focused practice mentality that they've had for at least ten years and this attitude towards the incessant "work" part of their art has made all the difference.

he interestingly portrays mozart and tiger woods in this light and shows their insanely disciplined, focused practice and the presence of fathers who were actually teachers that retired to take on full mentor roles.

anyways, it was captivating, realizing that 4-6 hours a day of consistent, deliberate, disciplined practice for ten years, i can be be on my way too. okay maybe not that but at least i'll practice smarter.

here's a link to the original fortune mag article:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm

doug

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2009 15:48:47

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

This has been my feeling for many years. When people start talking about natural talent I often sense something murky underneath.. some people justify that they laid down their artistic ambitions with the notion that they didn't have the 'right talent' (or 'made it' before reaching age x). later they begrudge people who are holding on to their ambitions but are at the level where they themselves put their dreams aside. I guess for many, it can be painful to have look at the options they've had in life.. or for someone to demonstrate 'look you can still do it'.

If there is such a thing as talent.. isn't it simply in enjoying the hard work?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2009 2:17:56

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

didn't read the full article before posting.

quote:

The critical reality is that we are not hostage to some naturally granted level of talent. We can make ourselves what we will. Strangely, that idea is not popular. People hate abandoning the notion that they would coast to fame and riches if they found their talent. But that view is tragically constraining, because when they hit life's inevitable bumps in the road, they conclude that they just aren't gifted and give up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2009 2:25:58

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to mrMagenta)

i agree, i never really belived in talent ...its as useful to me as the expression "flamenco sound"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2009 2:54:15

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

with hard work is possible to go far, but then what separates the best from the rest is ingenuity. That is not within everybody and I believe that mozart and tiger woods had/ have it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2009 3:03:32

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

You can’t teach sensitivity either. I can’t imagine a “brutal, exacting, focused practice mentality” leading to a greatly improved musical sensitivity even over a ten-year period of time.

It seems like talent, and not just dedicated practice, is what differentiates players like Stevie Ray and Jimmy Vaughn. Without practice you won’t get anywhere, but with it you can only go so far.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2009 7:39:47

ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

what's interesting is that anders ericsson's study researched chess, sports and music which have an obvious practice methodology and whose performance ability can actually be measured.

one of the objects of study were the violinists entering the music academy of west berlin which were graded by the professors into three groups of ability and potential for future careers. after researching their lives, the one factor that consistently determined which group (best, better, good) they landed in was the amount they had practiced by age 18. the top group had 7,140 hours on average, second 5,301 hours and the last 3,420 hours.

i do not think the top group went on to become joshua bells or itzak perlmans but it does speak to how to become a high level performer. i would like to think that maybe not talent but aesthetics choices and subjective things like taste mean the top perfomers can become stevie ray vaughns or john williams or tomatitos.

very interesting also is the one facet that the author readily acknowledged was a huge blindspot: the wild card factor of motivation. they still do not know why one child or person wills themselves into this exacting routine and adheres to it for decades if not a lifetime.

doug

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2009 9:05:59

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

And what about the over 18-year olds?

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2009 3:09:40

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to edguerin)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2009 4:58:33

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I could, for example, practice and become the best and fastest guitarist technique and compas wise, but I may not be able to come up with a falseta if my life depended on it.

that's a good point. i would say a lot of classical guitarists are this way. they may be able to perform very technically challenging pieces but cant improvise or compose for crap.

however, composition is a skill that can be developed, imo. you just have to practice it, same as you practice technique. the more you mess with it, the more you learn about it, the more you explore creative potentials.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2009 5:24:05

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: deliberate practice (in reply to ricecrackerphoto)

Thanks for the article, interesting stuff, reminds me of this:

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

Calvin Coolidge

I hope he's right, 'cos if he is i'm in with a chance!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2009 14:25:21