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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Florian)
quote:
you were implying that solo guitar is not flamenco
Yes. I realized that people might have interpreted it that way thats why i tried to clarify that it isnt so i these posts above as you say.
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Fine, but you go further and dicover it is really like I said, where you draw your own personal line is different than others, concerning how "flamenco" a guitar solo can be. Like you just said again, it is "subtle", meaning, something you notice but can't really explain. Yet you came off earlier like that is the collective Spain view and things, rather than a more personal taste issue.
I mean that its more subtle than just imitating the songline as i tried to go into in the last post about it. And i will further when i can find some good examples to upload
What is the collective view among flamenco aficionados and artists, not just in spain, is that cante is the thing that separates flamenco from any other music, it is unique in its mix, forms and tradition, and is the core of flamenco. Thats not subjective.
But many people come to flamenco from the classical romantic "spanish guitar" world which have no cante tradition but very flamenco inspired guitarplaying.
So without cante, flamenco would be very similar to that, or fingerstyle, latin or jazz music. (Nothing wrong with either)
To illustrate it, why does diego de morao play like this:
And not like this?:
Because they are different traditions and one of them doesnt have cante as center, even if they are similar.
And a "complete flamenco guitarist" has done or does accompany, thats not my opinion, thats a fact.
And i didnt mean that you specifically were jumping on me.
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
So without cante, flamenco would be very similar to that, or fingerstyle, latin or jazz music. (Nothing wrong with either)
But all those other styles have singing too. And When there is singing, it is no less important than cante is to flamenco. A jazz standard is based on a song that was originally sung. But with no singer, the jazz guitarist's role in playing the standard is no less "jazz" then if the singer had been there. Same for a latin tune, or folk tune, bossa nova, etc. A concert of only flamenco guitar, even not good or not so flamenco guitar, is not anything like jazz or fingerstyle. I would say it is bad flamenco, of pseudo flamenco.
The point is, the "collective view" has indiviuals that draw there own lines and limits. Every afcionado has his own personal limits on how far out of flamenco things can get. Some aficionados think Paco is playing great flamenco. Others say "that is not bulerias". Agujetas thinks nothing is flamenco, only himself. That is the extreme. Some aficionados think only of Sabicas and Amaya, anything modern is "jazz". Cante is part of the view no doubt, but my point is to what extent. YOUR lines have been clearly drawn. To say "it is not subjective" is the problem alot of folks will have with your view. It reads, "MY view is the one the real folks that matter have, so you better get on board with me". No doubt when the majority of aficionados and flamencos acknowledge Moraito as good for some reason, it is smart to read into the reasons. But if we all felt like Agujetas, then there would not be flamenco anymore.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
All other styles of "folkmusic" has song too as their main expression, sure. And the instruments when they ddint accompany that still have traces of that song in the music even if its soloists playing. So that isnt unique for flamenco either.
A solo flamenco guitar can be extremely flamenco, anyone who listens to Jucal with gerardo will have no doubt about that. What he does though is playing falsetas he has played with singer also in that solo, and that just proves my point further about solo guitar being extensions of falsetas. And the falsetas form comes from accompaniment.
The point im trying to make is that some things are objective facts and terms used as part of a tradition, like a "complete flamenco guitarist" or "complete singer" etc and sologuitar has been around since Ramon Montoya (who also accompanied a lot of singers ) so theres no doubt that it can be as flamenco as any other expression.
The subjective part comes when personal taste comes in the picture, what i like or not and that can be very subjective.
Personally, i can find some things very removed from the core (cante) extremely beautiful, like some of vicente´s music, but neither he or i would regard that as flamenco. He has said that himself in interviews.
And i can think that some extremely bossa or jazzinfluenced stuff played with a singer inside the format of accompaniment very unappealing.
But thats a matter of personal music taste, not facts like the ones i have stated above.
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
A solo flamenco guitar can be extremely flamenco, anyone who listens to Jucal with gerardo will have no doubt about that.
See, but it goes beyond just if you like it or not. Aficionados have told me about this piece in particular, that it is not buleras. It is like jazzy stuff based on the compas of bulerias. But when he accompanies Indio Gitano, yeah it is suddenly "flamenco", because the falsetas themselves don't make or breat the "flamenco" label.
See it is not if you like it or not, an aficionado can say "jucal is very nice, i like it, but it is not flamenco". On the other hand, another aficionado can say "jucal is GOOD flamenco. And those same falsetas are very inspiring with Indio Gitano too...". Yet another aficionado can say "jucal of course is bulerias, even jerezano, but I don't like all the technique display. I like "aire"". See I can go on and on. It really is personal.
We were never talking about if admited fusion music is flamenco or not. I am just saying the "facts" of how "flamenco" something is, are also subjective. John Mclaughlin can be agreed, is not a flamenco player, he is a jazz player. But just how NOT flamenco is he, considering the things he learned from Paco? I have seen him do Abanico better than some dance accompanists I have seen.
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
es, some people a lot more hardcore traditionalists than me could think that would be the ideal. Im not that hardcore
Yep, I am even more hardcore than Agujetas. I think it ended with Tio. But that is just me. You can't have all those teeth, gold and what not, and be pure. Still, I respect others views, even though they are wrong.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
quote:
See, but it goes beyond just if you like it or not. Aficionados have told me about this piece in particular, that it is not buleras. It is like jazzy stuff based on the compas of bulerias. But when he accompanies Indio Gitano, yeah it is suddenly "flamenco", because the falsetas themselves don't make or breat the "flamenco" label.
If he didnt play those short jazzruns in there, they would have said it was bulerias. They have a bit of a problem with some esthetics that comes as influence from for example jazz, and they are critizicing it from a traditionalist point of view. And that is subjective, yes.
That has to do with if you accept fusion or not, those runs are fusion, the rest isnt, and the falseta format isnt either. And the general impression of it is flamenco for me who has accepted the some of the new influences.
But if the whole piece would be just jazzruns that broke the falseta form or had no cante base it wouldnt be flamenco, it would be fusion. And these are some of the subtleties i was talking about before.
Diego del Morao plays the same falsetas in his solo as he does with Montse here and noone would say that wasnt flamenco, because you cant really hear any fusion in it.
And to master one technique like abanico, doesnt automatically make anyone a "complete flamenco guitarist" most of my guitarstudents have abanico more or less under control as well.
And you see yourself that people are more willing to accept fusion falsetas with a singer and still call it flamenco, thats because cante is what makes the difference.
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From: Washington DC
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sonikete
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Still, I respect others views, even though they are wrong.
No i think your wrong in that.
I accept that you feel that way, even though it is so wrong it hurts.
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And you see yourself that people are more willing to accept fusion falsetas with a singer and still call it flamenco, thats because cante is what makes the difference.
Yes it does, for CERTAIN aficionados, not all. That was my point.
Ricardo PS, for the record, I dont' think playing a certain scale or chord is "fusion" necessarily. For example, Gerardo used super loc based on tonic. In jazz they would not use it that way, the way he is using it, and he is not even thinking that way anyway. But that is another topic.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Yes it does, for CERTAIN aficionados, not all. That was my point.
Yes, and i think most aficionados in spain would, because cante is the perspective they view things from unlike many aficionados outside of spain who regard the guitar as the essence of flamenco. And they usually comes via the "spanish guitar" classical tradition to flamenco.
A lot is subjective when it comes to music in general and this discussion is borderline about that.
I think i understand your point of view though, gerardo is struggling to get the solo guitar recognized in spain and thats the opposite of how the guitar is viewed abroad where its number one for many.
quote:
I accept that you feel that way, even though it is so wrong it hurts.
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
Yes, and i think most aficionados in spain would, because cante is the perspective they view things from unlike many aficionados outside of spain who regard the guitar as the essence of flamenco. And they usually comes via the "spanish guitar" classical tradition to flamenco.
It depends on who you ask really. I think it would very. Do a poll. Perhaps foreigners aficionados residing IN spain, yeah it would be overwhelming. But in general, I don't know.
quote:
I think i understand your point of view though, gerardo is struggling to get the solo guitar recognized in spain and thats the opposite of how the guitar is viewed abroad where its number one for many.
Gerardo has his view and I have mine. I understand what he wants, but I am not on a crusade to defend flamenco guitar solo. I think instrumental music requires a certain attention span, a certain audience. No way you can force minds to open by having a concert series, people either understand it, or it bores them. No one is forced to like it, or even consider it "flamenco". I just don't like the snobby attitude some folks give like "its about the cante, I think solo guitar is not flamenco, I am proud to say I did not attend the concert of guitarist X..." etc. You know? Because a lot of really good dancers and singers I know, are really not like that. They love the guitar by itself and some even keep up with the modern stuff going on. Not Agujetas, but everyone is different. The ones that don't care about guitar solo, they don't make a big deal like that. You can't speak for "most of the aficionados of Spain", only for yourself and others you hang with or read what they said. Gerardo was never saying cante is not important, only that the solo flamenco guitar is. To say it is "not flamenco", is worse than saying it is "not important". It is like saying, it is nothing.
I have friends who feel same as you, but I feel no need in conforming my feelings to be part of "the group".
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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Do a poll.
Dangerous, polls But i will, it would be interesting if it doesnt go out of hand.
quote:
"its about the cante, I think solo guitar is not flamenco, I am proud to say I did not attend the concert of guitarist X..." etc. You know?
I love solo guitar myself, and seeing good dance performances with good guitarists, its just i dont get tears in my eyes and the hair standing up my neck the same way as it does listening to some cante. Im not knocking solo guitar at all.
quote:
I have friends who feel same as you, but I feel no need in conforming my feelings to be part of "the group".
Why should you, im just interested in the discussion w you, youre a damn good guitarist and id like to hear your views on things!
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
I have like singing since I was a young teen. I like singing of many styles, and a strong singer moves me right away, no matter what sytle. The first time I heard flamenco cante, really listened to it, before I could play anything in compas, It was not an acquired taste for me. My tastes have not changed much since I first heard cante.
But I started with guitar. I liked very much singing songs, at the same time I was learnig guitar (rock, pop, metal, etc). And unlike the majority of my friends, I was always very deeply, or equally moved, by intrumental music as much as any singing. I really respect both. It think singing it is EASIER to convey an emotion than playing an instrument, and that maybe partly why I am so moved by instrumental music. I think to only prefer singing is a bit shallow. But that is just me. And all I have been saying is that there will always be a smaller audience to respect the "instrumental version" of a genre.
So I have no problems with folks who feel a need to show how important cante is. But I have always understood what singing means to music. But I dont' see the point of the fans of singing, who knock the instrumental music. In flamenco it is done with a bit of snobbery that just really bothers me. Nothing wrong with not likeing the guitar, but to say it is on the verge of not even being part of the genre, that just sucks to me. But again, perhaps I am the minority.
RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
Some instrumental music moves me just as much as cante, but in flamenco it is sometimes difficult not to think "how can i learn this falseta" or be dazzled by technique and instantly try to figure out what they did. And that sometimes gets in the way of the pure enjoyment of it, its a bit of a guitaristic disease for me at least. And i dont really have that filter on as much when im listening to singers.
I am not saying i dislike solo guitar in the least, i have said that several times. Im a guitarist.
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You can't have all those teeth, gold and what not, and be pure. Still, I respect others views, even though they are wrong. 
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