RE: 2s in bulerias examples

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Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

The point is that zata thinks that bulerias is actually in two's. The accented 3 is actually felt as a syncopation from this

Well put, I think

. Try palmas on a buleria de Jerez and do not clap the 3rd xx-xx-xx-xx it works pretty well.

Watch the palmeros in the pena at Jerez in this video I took (not the American guy on the left in the first few frames

)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/jerez2004/images/Moneo%202.wmv

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 18:56:37

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

I've been flowing this thread with interest, listening to Bulerías and tapping in twos. I think my flamenco dance teacher actually clickes her tongue in twos whilst clapping and dancing. Que maravilla.

Wher can we hear this bulería of Todds ? Even harold is getting curious. i've suggested to him and Emilio that they should take a listen to what you guys are doing here. Trouble is pinning them down in fron of my computer instead of teh studio one, but let me know if anyone has anything in particular they would like some feedback from Emiloi and I'll give it a go.

Kate

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Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 18:57:34

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Escribano)

Hi Simon,

quote:

By what you are playing. The clues are in the music, no?

If I understand you correctly, I'd have to say no. This is a prescriptive idea that's a bit like classical guitar playing. The problem is feeling the compas in a way that you're solid and you can jam with your inner metronome rocking away.

This is the big struggle for me in Buleria so the two's idea is interesting, but only if it helps.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 18:58:30

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Kate)

quote:

i've suggested to him and Emilio that they should take a listen to what you guys are doing here.

Good idea but looks like the original has moved on unless someone downloaded a copy of it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:04:10

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Escribano)

What about something you guys have done, Emilio was fascinated about the ideaof an online jam. i dont think I explained it very well though. Hows your Spanish Simon perhaps you can give him the lowdown on what the forum does when you meet him at Lewes. of course you are going to go aren't you

kate

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Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:06:29

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Hows your Spanish Simon perhaps you can give him the lowdown on what the forum does when you meet him at Lewes. of course you are going to go aren't you

Sit him down and play him this one (the group Tangos)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/m.asp?m=2562&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

It's on the same loop and tempo unlike the Soleares. I speak muy malo but Harold and I should be able to explain between us.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:14:39

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Escribano)

One of the guys in the video(buleria) is doing
12 1 * 3 4 * etc I´ve seen camarón de la isla clapp this while he´s singing.
Al-golpe but one beat "early". are this the two´s?
Henrik

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:20:54

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to duende)

quote:

Al-golpe but one beat "early". are this the two´s?

Well, it's not my theory but these are the "twos" I hear, it rocks along quite happily in my head, but I am probably wrong. In which case, I'll get my coat

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:23:57

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to duende)

The singer seems to do al-golpe. The guy next to him does the other.(with variation)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:24:03

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 19:40:59

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 20:35:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

but let me know if anyone has anything in particular they would like some feedback from Emiloi and I'll give it a go.

Kate,
I'd honestly like Emilio to give his opinion of Todd's bulerias...
http://www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/TKBulerias.mp3

Todd is an American guitarist who is very good technically, but "inexperienced" in the Flamenco sense, in the fact he has not lived in Spain etc, but is very serious about his work and tries to take care of detail like nobody else I know.
I don't know if it's possible to learn completely from records etc, so that's why I'm interested.
I would certainly like to know what Emilio thinks, not in a generous way, guitarist to (foreign) guitarist and all that, but in an honest and critically thought out way of his playing. How does it measure up to what he hears and plays?

BTW Tell Emilio I am waiting for his album to come out on Flamenco-World.
I love his Alegrias sample!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 20:54:12

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 20:58:44

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

Compas beat 5, just seems so natural. If you're feeling two's the whole time, how do you know were to stop?

Jim,
Because tapping 2's is not the whole story, by any means.
Above that, you have the whole Traditional structure of Bulerias on top of that.
Tapping 2's without knowing the 12's structure...we'll you might as well be playing "Seargent Pepper".
2's are just 2's
What Estela is saying is that although the 3's or the 3,6.8,10,12 structure of Bulerias is immediately apparent, it is actually underpinned by a 2's beat.
I would have to agree with her here.
Of course 2's is just a beat...
Compás is Compás...
But, it's no good having technical compás without rhythm.
And amongst Flamencos in Andalucia "Compás" and "Rhythm" is the same word.
Can you see what I'm trying to get at here?

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 21:10:54

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I feel that if this was THE fundamental compas of bulerias then someone in the last half century would have done palmas with it.

Andy,
I think you are still seeing 2's as something that should shout out at you, be emphasised, played palmas to etc.
That would be totally and utterly boring and would completely render the delight of Flamenco music to the "Oompa" Bands of Europe.
What makes Flamenco so unusual and exciting, is this taking every opportunity to emphasise the "off" beats.
That is not to say, even if they don't sound it out, that it's not the fundamental beat they have going on inside themselves?
Just like my post about the Samba artists in Brasil.

Or maybe they are counting 3,6,8,10,12 on one compás and 3,78,10,12 on the next.
Then counting 6's.
Then counting two 18 beat falsetas
Then back to counting 12's
And just counting it all out in their heads?
The Singers, the Dancers and the Guitarists....
And of course, the audience!

Maybe they worked it all out beforehand?

You see what I'm trying to say Andy?
There is bags of evidence to show that Estela's "binding 2's" may very likely be the case.
From Tomatito, all the way through to Diego Amaya, and the countless audiences (in Spain, not America) who naturally pick up on this beat.

Who knows?
But it sounds very plausable to me!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 21:42:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

I had to have a look for Todd's Bulerias which started this whole 12 page (so far) discussion off in the first place.
They have moved it off the CG Forum to make way for other uploads, so I've uploaded the file of it I have onto my homepage. It's..

www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/TKBulerias.mp3

I think it's an amazing piece of guitar work, but I think I see what Estela is saying.
Todd is thinking very strongly in 12's and it works out in 12's perfectly.
But I have to agree, that you can't tap 2's to it.
Yet you can do that easily in Tomatito's or virtually any other Bulerias.
So is this the case of the shaft not revolving perfectly, even though the guitar playing is superb?

Have a think about it

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 22:39:39

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Escribano)

Simon,

quote:

Well put, I think . Try palmas on a buleria de Jerez and do not clap the 3rd xx-xx-xx-xx it works pretty well.

This is 'Al golpe', counted in three's with one beat silent. not twos.
This is the way PdL taps his foot in 70's videos, very effective.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2004 23:57:38

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

I have tried to read everything, but is nobody ever tapping:

1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11 ??

So by not tapping 12 3 6 9 you give the accent there?

Perhaps somebody mentioned it before, than i over red it, and I appologise.

greetings, Peter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 0:07:38

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

Compas beat 5, just seems so natural. If you're feeling two's the whole time, how do you know were to stop?

I still don't understand about the stopping problem...you mean like when you go piss? You'd stop on the 4th or 10th beat, never five. I don't think anyone ever had a problem stopping (?).

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 0:35:35

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

haven't you been reading this thread? The point is that zata thinks that bulerias is actually in two's. The accented 3 is actually felt as a syncopation from this.

No, bulerías is not "in" twos, twos are in bulerías. They overlay all the rest in order to make compás. For example, in standard old-style bulerías compás (as opposed to Ricardo's 12s):

1 2 (3) 4 5 (6)

The above is a graphic representation of the compás, but the 2 and 4 dominate only because the handclap (footbeat, falseta) accents those beats, PLUS they are overlaid by twos. Otherwise beats 1, 2, 4 and 5 have equal imporance and you don't know where the compás is...in effect, without the overlay of twos, you have a module of three beats instead of six, but bulerías with loose threes is extremely rare. What I mean is 1-2 (3) is exactly the same as 4-5 (6), but 1-2 (3) is not the same as 4-5 (6) so a unit of six beats is created.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 0:50:12

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I disagree and I've never heard anyone clap that rhythm.

I took a palmas workshop with someone who toured with Greco and there was never any mention of twos in bulerias. According to him, stay in sixes on palmas until you really know the toque material. The reason was that sixes cover threes or twelves as well as sixes. This makes a lot of sense to me.

Andy, you must have skipped some messages...I've written several times that no one does palmas in twos. Ones either.

I was Greco's cantaora in 1967-68 and he never had any problem with the blerías cante or palmas I did for the group. When you say sixes, I assume you mean 1-2 (3) 4-5 (6) which as I just graphed in a previous post, cannot exist without twos *even if you think you're not relying on them*. It's easy to "just do it" and not realize what's holding up the structure. When I've taught beginners bulerías palmas they always play 1-2 (3) 4-5 (6). That tiny variation of not giving 4 it's due importance takes away the feel of bulerías....try it.

Each beat of bulerías has it's own personality, function and force. Beat 4 is the 'elusive' remate some people are worried about...it's a pivotal beat which gets short shrift without twos. By contrast, beat nine is always a bridesmaid.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 1:22:08

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 3s in bulerias (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Jaleos are clear predecessors of the bulería and of the soleá for dancing."
http://www.esflamenco.com/palos/enjaleos.html

This webpage reminded me of something. Bulerias started out based on a 3-count
form from its first creation. Maybe that's why it still has the feel of a 3-count to me even
if an asymmetric 3-count.

The webpage Esflamenco has a very complete shop, but the didactic information is *highly* unreliable. Norman Kliman found so many egregious errors, he actually wrote them to ask what was going on. They sheepishly answered that they didn't know anything about flamenco, but had taken lines here and there from books, with no references given.

There is no evidence that bulerías started out "on a 3-count form". It's a fairly modern creation and is thought to have come from soleá, but there is no consensus and no evidence.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 1:55:40

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

BTW Tell Emilio I am waiting for his album to come out on Flamenco-World.
I love his Alegrias sample!

Ron, the recording is available through Deflamenco and in 10 days I'm going to Granada to interview him about it...in fact, suggestions for questions are welcome from all forum members.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 1:59:10

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 1:59:55

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Zata, did you know my friend Lydia Torrea? She danced in Jose's group and now she lives here in Phoenix.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 2:05:56

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Guest)

[/quote]Why not, if it such an important sub-rhythm as you claim? [/quote]

In order to combine twos with other layers of compás, most people beat twos with their feet and leave more complex rhythms for the hands.

[/quote]Yes, sixes DO have twos in them. I have said that. But I think it stops there. The twos that I hear within the six-count rhythms are not in the 12-count rhythms. [/quote]

Andy, it's sounds like you think 1-2, 4-5 is twos. That's just a six-beat unit of bulerías and cannot be considered fundamental.

[/quote]The guitarist friend of mine who laughs at the idea of two in bulerias also toured with Greco Jr. [/quote]

There's no reason to expect professionals to be aware of what they're doing. Could you explain auxiliary verbs (do, does, will, can, etc.) to a Spaniard? It's not possible to speak English without them.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 2:21:55

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 2:35:53

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Zata, did you know my friend Lydia Torrea? She danced in Jose's group and now she lives here in Phoenix.

I remember the name (with one 'r') and think I worked with her, but can't remember if it was with José Greco. People you might know from when I was in the group are Roberto Amaral, Sarita de Luis, Orlando Romero...of course Nana Lorca... And that's all I can squeeze out after 35 years

.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 2:54:07

mentrida

Posts: 55
Joined: Jun. 19 2004

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to zata)

Zata,

You mentioned earlier that you have written extensively about this and are currently working on another paper. I would love to read your material. Could you tell me where I could do so?

thanks,
Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 3:06:03

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (in reply to mentrida)

quote:

You mentioned earlier that you have written extensively about this and are currently working on another paper. I would love to read your material. Could you tell me where I could do so?

You're not THE Simon, are you?

The most neatly organized material is in Spanish, about 8000 words so far, but it's for the Peña Bulería in Jerez and can't be publicized until mid-September.

What I've written in English was condensed from messages similar to the ones I've written here and made into an article which contained less detail. I have some paragraphs on my other computer in Morón I could post...if everyone isn't already sick of bulerías

. Did this string make a world record yet?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2004 3:17:49