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Understanding the rules of the music industry
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HemeolaMan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago
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 RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to Ailsa)
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the classic dichotomy of independent and union musicians
there's a standard fee that some musicians really adhere to and then get upset when you offer someone less. in that sense, it is not beneficial to anyone for you to offer less than standard fee. however, it is understandable that one might think offering a lesser fee for lesser skill makes sense. But, think of it this way, even when you pay for what you get, you wont find a hotel in london for less than x money per night. there is a price floor which in this case is the standard fee.
however, given that you are promoting students, it is reasonable to think that they should make less.
here's where we examine that. some pro's are not as good as students are, and all pros are still learning. so the differentiation between student and professional becomes more difficult, one of the qualifying factors being wages and percentage of income derived from gigging pay. however "professionalism" is largely determined by attitude and whether or not he/she gets paid.
in other words, students are still pros if they get paid pro wages. theres no point at which the universe says "okay you are now a pro, not a student anymore." lol no musician's bar exam.
So from now on, you offer the students deals with standard fees or book 5 year olds!!!
lol. its kind of one of those things where you have to really dig into it to see the logic, but it holds true.
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Date Apr. 11 2009 8:35:14
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Hey Hem,
That's interesting, thanks.
I seem to get from what you are saying that it's a bit like the BBC, where there is a standard fee set for a specific slot and that is fixed whether you are a student actor or Richard Burton!
So it's the "base rate" of the VENUE that cannot be negociated at a lower level.
A bit like the legal "minimum wage", whether one worker is more productive than another.
You can offer more to keep the more experienced worker, but not lower the rate of the beginner.
So in the Music Industry, even though it may not be supportable in Law, it is a "general agreement" between musicians and music venues.
I am understanding this correctly?
cheers,
Ron
Hi Ron,
I don't quite see it that way. Ailsa's original question was not about the "Music Industry" per se but more about the food, beverage, and hospitality industry.
My brother is a professional musician, meaning that he earns his living off music and doesn't have another job. He does this by touring (mostly Japan), producing and selling albums, and more recently, licensing music to TV Sitcoms. THAT's the music industry.
When it comes to bars and cafes, they book musicians with the sole purpose of attracting customers and selling more food and beverages, or to become known for a certain type of music within the community. It's mutually beneficial because you're enhancing their business, and they're (hopefully) paying you to do that.
Now that being said, different venues are different gigs. In my town this is pretty much how you work your way up:
1. Open mics
2. Free or minimally paid shows at book store cafes or bars.
3. Paid gigs at bars and cafes
4. Music festivals
And then after a long time of getting your name out there
5. Theatres
After that you figure out a way to market yourself to a national audience.
Now you only get to #3 if the establishment thinks that you will bring in more money than they are paying you to be there, meaning people have to have heard of you and come specifically to hear you.
Ailsa's friends' gig was a #2. It seems to me that through networking and knowing nice people, Ailsa managed to land a gig at a place that usually has #3s. Now, the bar owner wanted to take a chance on these unknown performers because of that personal connection with Ailsa and an interest in guitar music. But it's reasonable for them to not pay full price because these students weren't probably going to bring much of a crowd specifically to see them.
I apologize for the length of this post but anyhow my bottom line is that if these "professional" musicians would be so peeved about losing *ONE* #3 type gig in order to give younger folks a chance, I mean....that is really small potatoes and very petty in my opinion.
I am a musician myself trying to make a living so I understand a bit of where they are coming from, but you around here you really can't even think about going "pro" until you are at #5.
Ailsa, don't give up! There will be more opportunities, but maybe shoot for a lower level gig I guess if people are so uptight?
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Andy Culpepper, luthier
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Date Apr. 11 2009 10:31:39
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HemeolaMan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to Ailsa)
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To rephrase my thoughts:
Ailsa, you are right to be upset with the completely ABSURD reaction of the local musicians. There is no reason for you to feel bad for wanting to promote students!!
I support your efforts, you are facilitating the education and live performance experience of students. That makes you awesome.
As far as the music business, this is definitely part of it. Anything that involves music and money is the music business. that said, you have to keep in mind that every musician is like a CEO, they make the decisions for their own firms and they are essentially in charge of their assets and liabilities. Skill is an asset, lack of talent or unpractised material is a liability. If the balance is correct, and the skilll exceeds inability for most things, then the CEO has done a good job and his firm is in the black. To do this, the musician must practice and bring a professional attitude to the gig and be 100% there and doing exactly everythign that is asked or is in the contract.
However, as is the case with many corporations, the best CEO is not always the highest paid. sometimes you have awful people making tons of money and decent hard working really excellent ones making pittance or volunteering at a food bank or something. As is the case with CEOs so it is with musicians. Regardless of skill, the fee is the fee. Whether the venue recognizes skill and proportionately awards money is irrelevant. the fact of the matter is that there are few venues and many musicians. This means that musicians are disposable.
Since this is the case, it makes sense to maintain the baseline fee structure, this insures at least a minimum amount for all musicians regardless of skill. Disposable workforces are the reason that many laborers unionize, musicians are no different. So, when a new musician comes on the scene and undercuts, it is in a social sense, irresponsible.
However, in this circumstance since this would be an educational performance, the argument should be made that this particular venue could be transformed, by reputation, into a place that is friendly to students, offers a decent and fair fee (though not equal to a professional fee) and will hire professionals at standard fes so as not to undercut the prices of the surrounding area.
If this could be made into a binding contract with Ailsa as the promoter or booking agent for the student talent at the venue, then the students could easily recieve a 3/4 or 2/3 fee and the pro's would see no impact on the median fee levels.
I would be happy to help you work something up for that. They should of course pay you a fee for the bookings.
Remember Ailsa, musicians are business people too. and the reason to be in business is to make money and deliver a product. you should be compensated for delivering product.
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Date Apr. 11 2009 16:18:32
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gato
Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to KenK)
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Oh well Ken, we all have our opinions about the matter, I have mine you have yours, and that's what makes the world interesting. I think the record companies have a bit of a standoff with the union musicians, and it's the old arguement, tired and yet it raises emotions and I am sorry that I am so anti union but I am. Ailsa's case is just another case of why local musicians can be so stalid in their nonesense, union or not. But the record companies have provided the world with some pretty nice records. And the fact is you can make it as a local musician, but around here in the Bay Area it's very hard to avoid the nonsense that goes on without joining a union at least in my area.
The technology today has afforded changes that makes it impossible to gauge what is going to be the situation now or in the next few years now that recording is available to the common musician. But the nonsense in the local scene still continues, and it will go on as long as people are desperate for contracts with the large record companies. And that usually tends to be the case, and as for Ailsa's problem, it is an unfortunate result of too many people struggling for the ear of the local public, and I'm not saying that there is alot that you can do, except put on BS attitude like I did here on this thread, and fight the local control tooth and nail.
Make a living, but you first of all have to be creative, origional, and seasoned and that says a lot. Young musicians deserve a chance to learn about performing and people should be more than happy to step aside and let them in.  I only threw in my 2 cents on the matter which has possibly little to do with the topic, but we all contribute around here and your point is a good one and it's well taken. Great thoughts by all.......
Gary
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Date Apr. 12 2009 8:39:50
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gato
Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to KenK)
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One more thought before I go Ken, a lot, and I mean a lot of local musicians just about everywhere rely on the record industry for the songs that they play locally, and most every musican in the local scenes use record industry music as a major source for their study, and for the most part as major influences for their ear training, and what not. And do local musicians compensate the company artists for their material when they play locally? Alot of the time no. So that is a major arguement about the usefulness of the content sold by the major companies. You've got to admit, with a slew of classic examples of music which are standard in the local scenes it's not a lot of bunk music, no not at all.
Yes another shining example of the old and tired argeument, and yet I am adressing your comments and not Ailsa's problem, but suffice for me to say, It makes a lot of sense to give proper credit where credit is due.
Gary
That's all I am going to say.
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Date Apr. 12 2009 9:46:00
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I have no problems with low level performers working for peanuts and free beer. Undercutting only occurs when an artist of EQUAL or GREATER ability and experience (or appropriateness for a venue), steps into the working territory of their peers for significantly LESS money. It does happen and it sucks. In some cases, something like cheesy low quality rumba can replace decent quality flamenco, which is a good example I feel of undercutting too, sometimes a rumba show might be more appropriate for a certain venue and therefore you can't say flamenco is "better quality" than rumba....but simply talking about these things amongst pros fixes these problems. When toes get stepped on it is a problem. In my area, when it happens, invariably the undercutters lose work and opportunities over time, and the higher level professionals that keep the prices up keep working and networking and supporting each other.
I agree 100%.. you can let it slide once or twice if the people didnt know but if they asked "how much are you paying now?" etc..."il do it for less", thats wrong
all they are doing is ruining it for everybody, including themselfs in the long run
cheapening the art...because when someone gets it really cheap they will never ever appreciate it or what you do they way they should..thats a fact.
this really is how they would think...is how i would.."regardles on how good you are or arent...before you even touched the guitar hes allready made his mind up about you..
 "well he only expects to be paid 50 bucs so how good and how hard can it be ?"..."when i get the restaurant off the ground Il hire a profesional band...the kind that charges more...they must be better"
also them, their friends, (other busines owners the restaurant owner might know) will always expect it that cheap in the future..so they will never pay more in the future...not to you and not to another flamenco group...to other
but i think its ok if its a new place thats never had flamenco before,
never thought about it and you are trying to entice them by sacrificing a pay or 2 for the big picture, or you are organising something in a joint venture and you are sharing the risk with them...however if they allready had flamenco before ..or have a resident flamenco group..its just ruining it for everybody.
is just intentional and directed undercutting i have a problem with
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Date Apr. 12 2009 12:39:13
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HemeolaMan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to gato)
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quote:
gato
One more thought before I go Ken, a lot, and I mean a lot of local musicians just about everywhere rely on the record industry for the songs that they play locally, and most every musican in the local scenes use record industry music as a major source for their study, and for the most part as major influences for their ear training, and what not. And do local musicians compensate the company artists for their material when they play locally? Alot of the time no. So that is a major arguement about the usefulness of the content sold by the major companies. You've got to admit, with a slew of classic examples of music which are standard in the local scenes it's not a lot of bunk music, no not at all.
Yes another shining example of the old and tired argeument, and yet I am adressing your comments and not Ailsa's problem, but suffice for me to say, It makes a lot of sense to give proper credit where credit is due.
Gary
That's all I am going to say.
As an aside, i'd like to point out some things about who does the money making in your average gig situation:
In a performance of cover materials the venue should have purchased a blanket license with ASCAP BMI and SESAC so that they can legally allow performances of intellectual material under copyright. There is no obligation of the musician to pay for the scholarly study of intellectual work. the only obligation is when that study of that specific version or a derivative thereof is used to make profit. it is then the responsibility of the payor to obtain necessary licensing.
The musician only has to pay when it is in the case of a mechanical license. this assumes that the musician him/herself is either sampling a piece of music to play on a record or is covering the material if in fact this fee isnt covered by the publisher or record company.
so, to perfrm other's work is technically a derivative work and as such the only thing owed is to the writer of the song and the publisher of the song, NOT THE RECORD COMPANY. The record company only owns the rights to the specific phonographic copy of the song that is released on their label, unless the record label has a publishing company that owns the rights in full to the title.
Union musicians are contracted by publishers (and by extension labels) to record the first recording of a song. This is the publisher's right, the first recording belongs to the owner of the song, and the writer usually has a reversion/termination clause that specifies the period in which the song must be recorded or the ownership reverts to the author. After the first recording, the compulsory license c omes into play and anyone is legally allowed to record or make derivative works from it.
The record industry and union musicians only make money when you buy records. Songwriters and publishers make money when the works are performed.
If you want to talk about who should be paid, then you dont owe the record industry when you play a song, yiou owe the writer and publisher. NONE of the money goes to the arranger, musicians or record label.
so when you play a solo on a michael jackson tune, or a madonna record, you get union scale and never see another dime! unless it is used in commercials in which case you get residuals every quarter
how does that sit with everyone? lol
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Date Apr. 12 2009 13:09:52
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Understanding the rules of the m... (in reply to HemeolaMan)
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quote:
how does that sit with everyone? lol
Perfectly fine for me! LOL. Everything you said is right on based on what I learned in school years ago....just keep in mind what you are describing is for USA only! Other countries have their own rules. And that includes music you might perfom that was by a Spanish author...over here in USA. ie FLAMENCO LOL. For example, polygram iberica or whatever, is not obligated to issue out a mechanical liscense for whatever some American might want to do with the music they own. Guitar magazines here in USA for example have had big pains in the butt getting permissions to print flamenco transcriptions of spanish owned stuff....because they play a slightly different game over there.
Anyway....with small time music like flamenco, this all becomes quite petty. About undercutting once again for Ailsa, I would say, was there a regular live flamenco or other type of music show the SAME NIGHT as will be the student performance? In that case, it could be looked at as a sort of undercut....giving the venue more bang for the buck. But if not, even if they have some sort of live music on a different night in the same place, I don't understand who exactly is being "undercutted".
I have a personal example as well. I do a regular flamenco show out of town on tuesday nights. A few years ago, the local flamenco scene decided to do a "sevillanas night" (amature performers and students dancing to live amature musicians and CDs) once a month, on my exact same night. Talk about riding on our coat tails, after having built up the gig for a good year. Anyway, I convinced the owner that I would "join" the student sevillianas night, so long as I got my normal pay for the night....luckily (FOR HIM...you will see why later) he agreed. It only took 2 times before the project went under. At first customers there to see flamenco where disappointed it was just students...since your average consumers could not participate, only watch. So they tried it so we actually did a pro flamenco show BEFORE the students took it over....what happend was the normal clientele watched our show then promptly LEFT the venue when the students started dancing.
Needless to say I am still doing the gig, and no more sevillanas parties there. If they had asked me to step aside once a month, then after the sevillanas thing died asked me to go back, I would have taken the opportunity to ask for a raise. And that is how it has worked actually for some colleges that got undercut in the past. They get asked back after the cheaper guys bombed.... but now the price has gone up. When that happens, you can see how the whole thing can turn out positive.
Just some more to think about.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 13 2009 23:00:47
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It's a free world and you do what ever the hell you want. But that ideal doesn't sit right with the morons who need unions to get a gig. Am I a trouble maker??? Hell yeah! 
