the art of memorizing

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minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

the art of memorizing

ola que tal ?

im hopeless at memorizing, just wondering how you folks do it? i have have a lot of expierence at playing classical meaniing always with music in front of me, even if i had the music memorized !! i.e during a performance.

i have heard many of the teachers in spain dont write things down for you, so im working on my meorization , anyone any tips?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2009 18:52:11

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

Hi minordjango,

I don't understand a thing about the science of it, but I can offer a few observations.

If you're trying to memorize an entire piece, it might be useful to assign names to falsetas or passages, sort of like the titles of the chapters of a book. Although it adds another piece of information, it makes for fewer puzzle pieces, if you know what I mean.

Memorizing a single falseta seems to involve different stages. Initially, the idea is "linear," because you remember the falseta one note after another, and if you lose your place you have to go back to the beginning in order to reproduce it. At a later stage, it seems to be a different story. I notice that when I practice with a metronome and I lose my place on the guitar, the falseta goes on in my head, and I can pick it up again a few beats later (even returning in the middle of a fast run or something).

Obviously, the key word here is overview, and the only way to get there is going to involve paying less attention to the tiny details that formed the basis of your initial understanding. People often use driving a car as a metaphor in this sense: When you first learn to drive, you concentrate on every detail of gas, brakes and clutch. After you've got some experience, you might drive home from work, lost in thought, before realizing that you're back in your neighborhood.

So maybe a big part of remembering involves forgetting!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 0:35:54

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to NormanKliman)

the first complete piece i memorized came around by itself, it was strange...there's this bulería i play a lot and one night after going to sleep and before really falling asleep i was playing it over and over, i could remember what the tab looked like and even my fingers followed the notes in my imagination...
to my shock, the next day i was able to play the piece without ever having tried to memorize it...so after that i practiced it even more and now yesterday i had the chance to perform it too...
i know this is not any kind of advice, but it's interesting :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 7:40:12

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

This is a huge problem for me, I just hit dead ends and have to stop and regroup. For me it is constant repetition. But I think as you learn the language of guitar, and get better at it, it becomes more clear and easier - I think I am starting to notice that. Just like learning a new language, you are always trying to translate your native tongue into equivalents, when you just know it and stop translating it is easier. I suspect the same process evolves with a musical instrument.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 18:21:20

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to cathulu)

A long time ago I went to see Paco Peña at his hotel.
I had been talking with him after his part in a general folk music concert which was running nightly all that week and he very kindly offered to show me some basic stuff, since he could see I was very keen and in those days there was little or no information on Flamenco guitar to be had.

I arrived at about 9.30 in the morning as arranged, but he was still asleep after being at a party the night before and I had to hammer on the door.

Anyway, he had only been awake about 20 minutes and had played nothing on the guitar and was just yawning and drinking a cup of coffee to get himself awake while he let me try one of his guitars to assess how much I already knew, (which was next to nothing!

)

I had been telling him about how I had seen Paco de Lucia playing a Malagueñas on a TV show a month or so ago and had been very impressed.

He paused and thought for a bit and said that he sorta knew the Sabicas/Leucona Malagueña but hadn't played it in a while so wasn't sure if he could remember it all.

So, still half asleep and not warmed up or anything, put down his coffee, picked up the guitar and played the whole thing through from beginning to end perfectly and masterfully, (including harmonics, tremolo and everything) with not even the tiniest fluff.

IT'S TOTALLY SICKENING AND ANNOYING...ISN'T IT!!!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2009 3:41:06

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

Ron im not sure whats more sickening !!! you had a lesson with paco pena or his memory hehe,
just envious, yeah i suppose it outlines all the above we have all different ways, and ive been playing a lot on say 20 years, its just my weak area (that and playing a bulerias !!!

.

i remeber reading a good artical from JOhn Duarte, mentioning various stages of memorizing, yet ah well i suppose i just gotta be patient !!!

many of my previous students seem to memorize so well, maybe i have to many paco pena nights they have taken away my brain cells.

paco gosh he is just well paco simply amazing , id dream to play his guitar, I personaly love the sound he makes.

cheers all, here goes im going to memorize 4 bars on the next hour !!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2009 5:39:02

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

I was so bad in memorizing poems in school, and in memorizing in general. But with music i never had problems. I think the key is listening focused(!) and playing without notes. I never played with notes in front of me, only one time, when i was just freshly putting together some solea falsetas and compas things in between, and i didnt know the order of the falsetas. There i named the falsetas after the guitarrists, and wrote their names, so there wasnt even "notes" in that sense on the paper.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2009 5:51:20

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

IT'S TOTALLY SICKENING AND ANNOYING...ISN'T IT!!!

More amazing still is that there was probably the one or other thing he did forget and just filled the space will something he made up as he went

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2009 0:12:08

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to John O.)

I don't think there's a secret to it so much as you just have to train your brain. I could imagine it similar to doing math equations in your head, it gets easier the more you do it.

One thing that's interesting - when you memorize something, your brain will always try to take in as much accompanying information through your other senses as well. So you'll always take your surroundings with you along with the song, even something or somebody else you'll have been thinking about on that day you memorized it will be there with the song ... FOREVER.

It's kind of a shame if you learn some beautiful romantic piece and can't get that a-hole out of your head that got on your case at work that same day

For this reason though, always try practising the piece in different places. Even in different rooms of your apartment. Because if you sit in one spot for 4 hours working on one piece, you'll be suprised when you want to show it to somebody somewhere else and suddenly you can't remember how it goes. "I could do it at home!

"

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2009 0:25:22

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to John O.)

quote:

More amazing still is that there was probably the one or other thing he did forget and just filled the space will something he made up as he went

That's a very significant point there, John.

I once had a local tiler in to do some work for me and he did an excellent job.
I was chatting with him over a cup of tea and was saying that doing a really good job with ceramic tiles is more difficult than you think, having had a couple of attempts myself.

He said " Tiling is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. The big difference between the amateurs and the tradesmen is that we know what to do to recover the situation when things start to go wrong."

I've noticed for instance when watching Paco Peña in concert, that if he makes a bit of a slip or a fluff during a falseta, he still keeps playing (in compás) and just goes back and seamlessly plays the falseta again from the start, so that it goes unnoticed by most of the audience.

A good trick and obviously one gained from experience.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2009 1:12:16

El_flaco

Posts: 44
Joined: Jan. 28 2009
From: Pacifica, CA-US

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to Ron.M)

I remember from last year, when we tried to have a new website (I won't go there), there was a post on memorizing and playing.

I don't remember who posted it, but they had read an article in a science magazine and.....(how ironic, my memory is fading

).... it had something to do with involving different senses to learn. For example, singing the melody while playing really helped the individual.

I guess it's similar to what John O. is talking about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 5:02:05

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

I used to have the same problem, but just kept at it. I think memory is something
that if used a lot, is like a muscle and develops with use. I used to have a hard
time to remember a single line of music, now I can generally memorize about
a page in an evening or so.

It's like a lot of guitar stuff, for example, nobody can just do tremelo no matter
how much they want to at first. But if you just keep at it, eventually the
little muscles get developed to the point where the fingers can do it.
For tremelo I practice a bit, every single day, and it has been frustrating,
but after a year or two, now I can do it reasonably. But it sure didn't take
just a few days to master.

The key thing, is just keep going back to it, and work slowly, and over time
it will develop.

Regards,
Jeff

quote:

im hopeless at memorizing, just wondering how you folks do it? i have have a lot of expierence at playing classical meaniing always with music in front of me, even if i had the music memorized !! i.e during a performance.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 11:59:51

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to John O.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

there was probably the one or other thing he did forget and just filled the space will something he made up as he went

That's the beauty of Flamenco! Improvising kicks Memorizing's @ss!
I don't know about you all but I really don't play Flamenco "pieces", but falsetas strung together with bits of compas. If I ever can't think of another falseta to play next, I play a couple compases of rhythm, and during that time either I remember another falseta, or if I've got nothing left, just end it!
Even if you are playing an actual "piece" you can do this too as long as you stay in compas and chances are no one will notice, even the people that wrote that pieces probably never play it exactly the same way twice.
Really the only tip I can give you for memorizing falsetas is play it a couple hundred times with compas before and after. But I find they are MUCH easier to memorize if you make up your own, so use that noggin.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2009 13:13:28

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

here's a little tip, i read that memory works on number of recalls, not repetition of information, so it doesn't matter if you sit down and play something 100 times in one go, it sort of counts as one repetition, but if you go do something else for 20 mins and play it again it counts as 2 repetitions (you could play some other things instead for 20 mins!). i have found this helpful

another one i read is to play through the passage/falseta whatever before going to sleep, and then the brain practises it in your sleep as well or something.... i have found this works too

another one is try to hum or sing the piece, and then do this while doing other things, even if you just go through it silently in your head on the bus, try to imagine the hand positions and movements too. these things really help

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2009 12:48:53

newstringjunkie

Posts: 21
Joined: Mar. 29 2009

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to mark indigo)

Visualising also works, like people in hospital who can't walk visualising walking are much faster at revalidation (?) So if you practice in your head you're also practicing. Happy braintraining!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2009 3:43:09

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

Setting small goals will help, and compare it to what you wanted to achieve.

For me comming 1 hour earlier out of bed, doin' some exercises, and again when I arrive at home seems to be more efficient, than playing the same ammount of time, or more, in the evening.

I've got a nice 'scientific' diagram about learning movements and remebering. I will upload it next week one I am able to make a copy, it's quite interesting

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2009 4:04:41

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to kozz)

quote:

I've got a nice 'scientific' diagram about learning movements and remebering. I will upload it next week one I am able to make a copy, it's quite interesting

that'd be cool to see. i'm trying to improve my memory overall. i got two ebooks about memory improvement to read that i haven't gotten to yet. i'll post a link or upload them if anyone is interested.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2009 14:50:24

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

I quickly put the whole thing in a word document.
Remember to rename the .txt extension into .doc

Happy reading, most of it is already mentioned by people above or in other parts on this forum, but there seems to be some structure in it...

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2009 0:27:43

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: the art of memorizing (in reply to minordjango)

My fingers hurt from practicing the guitar so it's hard to type! Eoooowwwe! Ok now, you could always try torturing yourself with smelling salt and a lot of hypnotic suggestion! Ok, am I joking or not??? Not going to say. There's the fingers. That's better now--the second wind. No I'm not going to play though.
Gary

You could always, well, no that's not even fair......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2009 21:02:23