Reminder for the Judges

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Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

Reminder for the Judges

Hi The Interemdiate Deadline is the 24th...the Judging will be on the 25th of
this month...this is a good time to remind those that i have down as judges for Intermediate and Beginners..

Ron
Todkk
Grisha
Ricardo
JasonM
Sean
Pimientito
Norman K
John O
Doit
Kate
Florian
Duende

If theres any questions or you are unclear regarding the way we will judge or our Criteria feel free to bring it up here..feel free to discus whatever you wish..

heres the Criteria agreed upon, plase make sure you are familliar and clear on it so that we are all on the same page when we score..

Score 1 to 10 with 10 the highest...

The Criteria. we will mark challengers on 3 different aspects..

Technique/Clarity
Timing/Compas
Aire/Swing

So on the day your scoring will look something like this..

Intermediate Challenge

Reference :Buleria 3

Technique/Clarity 8
Timing/Compas 9
Aire/Swing 7

Total 24

Please have the Scores up the top simillar to my example...makes it eazy to spot..

after that you can do whatever you like, feel free to give feed back if you like...dont feel like you have to, I leave it up to your discression..

except..if you give a really low score..for example under 4...the challenger deserves to know what made you score it that low..but other than that it is up to you..

thats it..

If i have you on the list and you arent going to judge it please let me know before the challenge..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 13:01:55

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

13 judges - is that unlucky?

kidding

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 13:05:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

13 judges - is that unlucky?

lol no. I should be ok...i am one of the judges

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 13:11:02

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

and all scores will result in a final points total or you'll be counting an average?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 14:01:21

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

I suppose mp3 will start reaching me now.

1. Do i need to
(a) upload them for public acces on the forum or
(b) ditribute them to the judges first?
2. Do i wait to distribute the complete list, or as they come?
3. Is there a deadline for submission to me, on either category?
4. finally, to avoid any presumption or guess on the order of receipt, i will not number the files, but assign to each a name of fantasy, perhaps each a disney's character name (?)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 18:05:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

1. Do i need to
(a) upload them for public acces on the forum or
(b) ditribute them to the judges first?
2. Do i wait to distribute the complete list, or as they come?
3. Is there a deadline for submission to me, on either category?
4. finally, to avoid any presumption or guess on the order of receipt, i will not number the files, but assign to each a name of fantasy, perhaps each a disney's character name (?)

1.option (a) since they will be secret and renamed theres no reason to exclude anyone

2. You should have them all by the 24th..that is the deadline..so upload them on the 25th or late on the 24th...whatever is eazyer for you..but try to keep them togheder as much as posible so that judges who arent here often come and just score some not realizing theres more..so ideally all togheder..but depends on you and if its possible....Scoring will take place on the 25th

3. yes the 24th for intermediate ( beginner about a week later from memory)..u can accept entries even on the 25th if the judging hasent started yet..but i wouldnt pushing the deadline...if we have started scoring allready..thats it for this challenge...again some judges who arent here all the time might come...do the score thinking thats everyone and leave again...we dont wanna wait 2 weeks to have a winner..and i dont know exactly how many entries there are going to be...none of us do..we will just asume thats it..

4. You can reference it however you like...

when the time comes you can make a thread ..eg..Intermediate Audios etc..or Intermediate Entries..

thank you again for everything and for doing this

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 20:11:53

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

quote:

and all scores will result in a final points total

yes ...i think that's fair isnt it ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 20:15:38

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

What if there is a tie? How will you break it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 20:26:29

andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu
What if there is a tie? How will you break it?

like this -

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 21:45:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

quote:

What if there is a tie? How will you break it?

good question lol before the prizes it was eazy it was 2 winners but now with the prizes makes for an interesting point....like i said we are learning from this one.

I got a couple of sugestions..

1. if there is 2 Winners..they are both winners and share the prizes..eg. one gets Jasons prize one gets the capo..

we are screwed if theres 2 runners up

2. if there is a tie we put it to public vote..with a Poll..majority wins

3. We go into a second round of judging the tie ...and look for ways to brake the deadlock..instead of just scoring it we score it against eachother..

one has to win

..this are some of the ways i can think of..i am open to suggestions

At the end of the day..the prizes are just a very nice bonuses to sweeten the deal..the real prize lies in achiving this, and the respect, and the skills you have gained..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 23:08:08

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

quote:

At the end of the day..the prizes are just a very nice bonuses to sweeten the deal..the real prize lies in achiving this, and the respect, and the skills you have gained..

You are so right - I have learnt so much about my playing during this. Just the exercise of taking one short study and really pull it apart bit by bit has shown me things about my weaknesses and strengths, and about how to practise.

Flo I have a question about the judges scores. While I am happy for the mp3s to go directly up onto the Foro, and for the final aggregated score to also be published, I think the individual judges scores should go direct to you. I don't want to know that for example one of the judges thinks my technique only deserves a 2!! I'd like to claim that I'm big enough to not be hurt by an individual's opinion, but you know maybe there's just a little bit of me that would hang onto that.

What would help me improve is just a comment, e.g. make rasguado clearer, or something like that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 23:41:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Technique/Clarity
Timing/Compas
Aire/Swing

So that we are all judging from the same standard, can I suggest that we all assume an "OK" performance in each of the catagories to be 5.

That is, the standard expected of an average intermediate-level player with an average competent performance would be 5,5,5.

Where something catches your attention, points are either added or subtracted from this.

(This will avoid issues such as someone going briefly out of compás getting a "zero" score, since technically speaking, something is either IN compás, or OUT of compás, if you see what I mean.)

So you listen to the entry assuming the contestant has a 5,5,5 score already and take it from there.

Sort of in the same way that a Driving Test Examiner will make notes of mistakes or things he is happily impressed with during your test.

Also I still think the catagories should be

Rhythm
Technique
Aire

This IMO keeps each area well defined, so that Rhythm covers compás and how the compás is felt and handled etc....ie ALL "rhythmic" things.

Technique covers the technical execution and clarity of playing.

Aire covers the general feel for the piece and overall tone quality etc.

Just some suggestions before we start, I don't want to interfere here, just to clarify things in our minds so we are all judging from the same level and viewpoint.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 0:30:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

Its fine..yes i agree with everything you said...

anyone can have input here..its not interfereing

its a very good idea that we discus it like this so that we are all on the same page..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 1:46:12

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

How long do we have to Judge. Do you want it done the same day? There is no way I can judge on the 25th of february. I will be able to cast my vote on the 28th. If that is too long to wait than i will have to withdraw.

Edit - you need to allow a few days at least. Judges with jobs wont have time in the week and professional players probably wont have time on the weekends.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 3:08:23

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

Florian,
Do the judges post their scores and comments DIRECTLY onto the Forum, or do we email them to the anonymisers?....

On Pimientito's comments....why don't we have a Judging deadline..like Midnight GMT on Sunday 1st March.
The voting is then closed and no further votes accepted.

That way everybody has a weekend to work on it.

Again, just a suggestion...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 3:42:53

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Do the judges post their scores and comments DIRECTLY onto the Forum,

NO, please no!!!

quote:

or do we email them to the anonymisers?....

Yes! Not sure if that would be gjMichelob or Florian. Whoever has a calculator!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 3:47:09

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ailsa)

Oh right, Ailsa...I see what you mean...in case anyone bears a grudge against a Judge who gives them a low mark.
Yeah...good idea.

On my Rhythm/Technique/Aire thought.....we could change it to Rhythm/Aire/Technique which would give you an overall RAT score, since everybody is so fond of acronyms these days.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 4:49:09

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

in case anyone bears a grudge against a Judge who gives them a low mark.

Absolutely Ron. Let's think about this - you are a judge and I'm in the challenge. Could our already fragile relationship bear the strain of the whole world knowing your honest views about my playing ?

Just kidding!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 5:09:46

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

we could change it to Rhythm/Aire/Technique which would give you an overall RAT score,

You don't think we should have an ART score then??
How about a

Timing
Intonantion
Technique

score instead

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 5:12:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

How long do we have to Judge. Do you want it done the same day? There is no way I can judge on the 25th of february. I will be able to cast my vote on the 28th. If that is too long to wait than i will have to withdraw.

well i was hoing to do it in about 3 days at the most..so 28th is ok...but dont leave it much longher..

keep in mind we have the beginners on the 4th so gjMichelob will be busy ..also i want the interemediate to be well over before the beginner begins so they dont overlap and overshadow eachother..also less confusing

quote:

On Pimientito's comments....why don't we have a Judging deadline..like Midnight GMT on Sunday 1st March.
The voting is then closed and no further votes accepted.

sure its a good idea but i wanna push the deadline to the 28th...for the reasons above...this was the reason i named/contacted judges before and gave them dates and ask if they can do it and to please make themselfs availabel for this on the 25th..

the 28th should be plenty of time for anyone who is busdy but agreed

quote:

quote:

Do the judges post their scores and comments DIRECTLY onto the Forum,

NO, please no!!!

First off i can see your point ..its a good one..
but..well i was thinking publicly ..that was going to also be part of the fun, includes everyone, lets them see the way it progresses ( also good for ther forum)...less chances of a mistake, its in the open, less chances of a judge overdoing it, gives us a chance to observe the judges, that was part of the reason i had a specific panel of judges..also part of the show watching what makes them thick etc.......

The reason the audios were done Anonimosly was so that the challengers cannot get offended or upset...They should keep in mind at all times that the judges have no idea who they are scoring ..

but if we do it the other way...shows over..
the score comes back and says ..

Ailsa Score 25...thank you for taking part
Pdh Score 26 Wins ..congratulations
The End...Next group

but this is not written in stone and its just my idea its not fact yet...i wanna see what the majority thinks..ultimateley i wanna hear from some more people involved how they feel about this ..i can go either way...i want the way we go to reflect the majority ..i dont wanna make this decision alone

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 10:16:02

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

quote:

but..well i was thinking publicly ..that was going to also be part of the fun,

Well, I tend to agree Flo,
That's why I rarely send folk PM's on Forum stuff.
I like things being out in the open, myself.
That, and also the fact that I don't really give a sh*t what folk think of me or my playing!

I see Ailsa's point, but actually I wouldn't say anything to anybody via a computer that I wouldn't say personally on a one to one conversation.

So what's the deal then?

DIRECT posting of the Judges scores and comments on the Forum?
Or SECRET anonymous stuff to save bad feelings?

I'm easy on this.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:26:42

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

So.. the deadline is 24th. Which timezone? :D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:31:11

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ron.M)

I don't quite understand what you are proposing Flo - the judges don't know who they are judging at the time, but we will know eventually won't we? All will have to be revealed in the end about who the competitors are. Otherwise we won't know who is the winner! So at some point we will all know what each judge thought about each individual.

Anyway, please just do it the best way you think. This was all your idea and I'll go along with whatever you want.

Just bear in mind I might never speak to either of you again

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:37:15

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

So.. the deadline is 24th. Which timezone? :D

Hi Mr.Magenta,

Well Midnight GMT seems a good International Standard!

And as Florian says...

Midnight on the 28th for the Judging.

Let's finalize it on this or we'll still be talking about in in March.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:37:50

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I don't really give a sh*t what folk think of me or my playing!

A very healthy attitude Ron, and one I wish I shared!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:38:46

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

So at some point we will all know what each judge thought about each individual.

Yeah, but Ailsa, then the comments will be about the PLAYING and not whether or not you like/dislike the INDIVIDUAL.

So wouldn't it be valuable to have such unbiased critique of where you are in guitar playing, to other's ears?

I'd give the same opinion if you were playing right in front of me.

So what's the diff?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:40:59

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ron.M)

Yeah Ron, it's fine I'm cool about it. It's just I know a bit about people and how they work. They are just not always that grown up, even when they want to be.

quote:

I wouldn't say anything to anybody via a computer that I wouldn't say personally on a one to one conversation.

Another principle I like. Not everyone behaves like that.

But like I said I'm fine about it really. I wanted to raise it as an issue, I've done that, so enough said. Look I'm smiling !!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:47:14

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

It's just I know a bit about people and how they work. They are just not always that grown up, even when they want to be.

I know you do Ailsa, but this is what makes the Forum fun!

As I have always said, play the ball and not the person....

We are not asking for a beauty contest where folk are receiving comments about things they CANNOT change.

You can always change your guitar playing....

If folk want to take the hump.....well...

Then let them IMO....

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 11:57:53

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

Look I'm smiling !!

Yeah....but I won't be when the Forum is going into Overdrive in a few weeks time and Henry's fire extinguishers have run out!!..

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 12:02:27

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Reminder for the Judges (in reply to Florian)

Cool, so:
Midnight GMT 24th on submissions
Midnight GMT 28th on judging

Ailsa, I think for us newer players there are many positive aspects to having all the critique shared openly. Next time it could be written in the challenge instructions so that people will know it before they enter. I'm looking forward to listening to and comparing the criticism of other peoples submissions for learning purposes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2009 12:05:42