RE: Conde Questions

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RE: Conde Questions

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TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Guys, there really is no mystery surrounding the Conde headstocks. They have simply evolved. All heads from all 3 makers were basically the same at one point. Somewhat flat with a shallow half moon cutout. I believe the Gravina and Atocha shops still use the same head. The Felipe shop at some point simply altered theirs to being taller with more pronouned rounded curves and a more pronouned half moon. That's it. They don't make "special heads" for special people. It's just like the head on a Fender strat. They all have the same shape but some are larger than others depending on the year.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:26:42

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer) 1 votes

Jim sent me these article scans he was having problems uploading.

Number 1:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:27:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M)

Number 2:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:29:54

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

quote:

Jim, you mean this type of headstock right?

Don,

Interesting. I see it better on this video at 2.20 (Rear view)

I know the older Sobrinos have this style (which I think looks fantastic) but my thought is that they are still being made at Felipe V, but only for the big gun players. Might be the duo at Felipe V make them personally whilst the other head design is their commercial version sold to the wider market and probably out-sourced to other makers.

I have an article on Faustino Conde from 1985 which I'll try to upload on a new thread. The guys might find it interesting background.

Cheers

Nice find jim! Juan Diego has such a nice touch. Funny thing is the tuners he has on that Sobrinos are Gilbert tuners from the US..which are very nice mechanically but sort of doesn't fit aesthetically on an old Sobrinos. Juan loves them though. Come to think about it, Ricardo owns a Sobrinos si?

I remeasured my Atocha dimensions compared with Hnos Sanchis 1a and it doesn't match up exactly. The upper bout and lower bouts are a little wider but 660 scale/width at nut 52 and spacing 60mm at saddle are same.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:32:05

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M) 1 votes

Number 3:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:32:29

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M)

That was an interesting story. I can only imagine how much of that has now changed to the way things are now between the 3 shops.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:40:29

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

Guys, there really is no mystery surrounding the Conde headstocks. They have simply evolved. All heads from all 3 makers were basically the same at one point. Somewhat flat with a shallow half moon cutout. I believe the Gravina and Atocha shops still use the same head. The Felipe shop at some point simply altered theirs to being taller with more pronouned rounded curves and a more pronouned half moon. That's it. They don't make "special heads" for special people. It's just like the head on a Fender strat. They all have the same shape but some are larger than others depending on the year.

Great article Jim! I think you're right Tom..the Felipe quinto shop were to the first to change it to what it is today. Here is an old pic from the Ramirez shop that a friend sent me awhile back. Can't recall the order L to R but I *think* Domingo Esteso is on the right of Sr Ramirez (right hand in pocket) and the one standing next to the kid is Santos Hernandez. Can anyone confirm this?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 12:01:44

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DonS)

L to R, 3rd guy is Ramirez, not the guy in the suit. 5th, Domingo and 7th, Santos. The little boy is Anders.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 12:36:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

Domingo esteso does not have a dust cloth to cover his clothes, because the guitars he "makes" come from Valencia....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 14:15:10

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

I can't believe I didn't notice this before but if you look closely at the window, you can see Ricardo Sanchis Carpio. Hmmm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 15:05:14

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Domingo esteso does not have a dust cloth to cover his clothes, because the guitars he "makes" come from Valencia....

Damn you're right!!!

instead Domingo should be in the back counting his pesetas!

quote:

I can't believe I didn't notice this before but if you look closely at the window, you can see Ricardo Sanchis Carpio. Hmmm

naw man thats his grandfather Ricardo Sanchis Nacher (got the name from your website) Yeah it does look like a young Anders...weird...he probably has vampire blood Count Anders! or better yet "Conde Anders" en español..i knew there was some connection there somehow but Anders makes all his own guitars hecho a mano

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 15:30:01

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DonS)

I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 15:32:49

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets.

good point..I wonder if he became a luthier.. must be in 60s or 70s by now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 15:36:40

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets.

Unlikely......

You know the (true) story of Santos hernandez and the boy apprentices?
After Ramirez died, Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso continued to make guitars under the label "widow of Ramirez" for a while. At that time Andres Segovia was playing a Ramirez that had actually been constructed by Santos Hernandez. However Segovia refused to acknowledge Santos Hernandez as the constructor of his guitar and always endorsed Ramirez as the maker which naturally must have annoyed Santos Hernandez a lot. One day Segovia came in to get a repair and Santo Hernandez suggested that he could make Segovia a new guitar with his own label in it.

Instead ( and rather insensitively) Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. Segovia finally returns to Santos Hernandez and says something like "what do you think of my new guitar?" Santos Hernandez of course became furious and evidently had some kind of a nervous breakdown. He ended up moving to a small workshop in the middle of nowhere and employing small boys as assistants to sweep up etc. He became paranoid that they were stealing his secrets. Every year or so he would get rid of them if he thought they were learning his craft.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 1:33:54

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Unlikely......

You know the (true) story of Santos hernandez and the boy apprentices?
After Ramirez died, Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso continued to make guitars under the label "widow of Ramirez" for a while. At that time Andres Segovia was playing a Ramirez that had actually been constructed by Santos Hernandez. However Segovia refused to acknowledge Santos Hernandez as the constructor of his guitar and always endorsed Ramirez as the maker which naturally must have annoyed Santos Hernandez a lot. One day Segovia came in to get a repair and Santo Hernandez suggested that he could make Segovia a new guitar with his own label in it.

Instead ( and rather insensitively) Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. Segovia finally returns to Santos Hernandez and says something like "what do you think of my new guitar?" Santos Hernandez of course became furious and evidently had some kind of a nervous breakdown. He ended up moving to a small workshop in the middle of nowhere and employing small boys as assistants to sweep up etc. He became paranoid that they were stealing his secrets. Every year or so he would get rid of them if he thought they were learning his craft.

That is very interesting, but how do you know this is the (true) story? If this is a true story, then the moral of this story....Segovia was a fool.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 3:59:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

Since I am that little boy, I can confirm that its the true story. Man It was great to get thrown out after a year of sweeping.
Later that experience helped me get a job in Denmark sweeping in a a Volvo truck workshop. (I like trucks and trailers)
I think we have to be greatefull that we get experience in life.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 4:37:12

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

but how do you know this is the (true) story?

Well George Lucas has turned it into a Hollywood script
GUITAR WARS
starring
John Malkovitch as Santos Hernandez.
Javier Bardem as Andrés Segovia
and Anrnold Schwarzeneggar as Hermann Hauser

I haven't got the documentation to hand right now. Its at home but this is the story that I am led to believe. I'll post it when I get back to Granada tomorrow....but basically Segovia literally drove Santos Hernandez mad.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 5:49:47

Taranto

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets.

There is no secret and better guitars than Santos are being made all over the world.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 6:12:12

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Instead ( and rather insensitively) Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. Segovia finally returns to Santos Hernandez and says something like "what do you think of my new guitar?" Santos Hernandez of course became furious and evidently had some kind of a nervous breakdown. He ended up moving to a small workshop in the middle of nowhere and employing small boys as assistants to sweep up etc. He became paranoid that they were stealing his secrets. Every year or so he would get rid of them if he thought they were learning his craft.

This is meant to be a joke right? Segovia's Hauser had virtually nothing in common with his Manuel Ramirez. The shape, size, depth, bracing pattern, neck attachment and method of assembly are all different from the Ramirez (Santos).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 6:53:52

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040)

Stories are always better if they are only half true! For a more accurate version try http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/inedita.htm
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 7:23:27

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Well George Lucas has turned it into a Hollywood script
GUITAR WARS
starring
John Malkovitch as Santos Hernandez.
Javier Bardem as Andrés Segovia
and Anrnold Schwarzeneggar as Hermann Hauser

This I have to see. I only wish Antonio Banderas would have been casted as Hernandez.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 8:39:28

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Taranto)

quote:

There is no secret and better guitars than Santos are being made all over the world.

Ah but there are Taranto. You just don't know about them because they are secret.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 8:41:07

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

This is meant to be a joke right? Segovia's Hauser had virtually nothing in common with his Manuel Ramirez. The shape, size, depth, bracing pattern, neck attachment and method of assembly are all different from the Ramirez (Santos).

John, I can see how this could be true. Segovia probably don't know much about guitar construction and probably didn't care to either. All he went by was sound and feel. So in this regard, perhaps he simply felt the Hauser was better.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 8:43:21

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez.

that would piss me off so bad......

what's the deal with segovia? every time i hear a story about him, he's always doing or saying something that would make him look like an absolute jerk/@ss.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 12:42:50

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

quote:

Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar what's the deal with segovia? every time i hear a story about him, he's always doing or saying something that would make him look like an absolute jerk/@ss.

Don't believe everything you read about Segovia. He was the greatest guitarist bar none of this century, the absolute master. I had the good fortune to hear him in concert several times and even talked to him for a few minutes after one concert. He was totally charming. I understand he was a terrific raconteur and didn't hesitate to embelish his stories. Maybe that explains some of the contradictory statements he allegedly made. When someone could play guitar like Maestro Segovia one should probably cut him some slack.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2009 15:01:05

Guest

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hola

The story of Santos, Segovia and Hauser is recounted by José Ramirez in “En torno de la guitarra”. The original guitar, officially a Manuel Ramirez, (Santos worked in Manuel´s taller) was presented to Segovia in 1913. Hauser presented him with a guitar about the end of the 20s, which Segovia did not like. So Hauser asked to see Segovia´s guitar and measured it thoroughly. However, it appears that he did not make an exact copy, but used it as a basis, and presented Segovia with a new and different guitar every year. It was not until between 1934 and 1937 that he finally came up with a guitar which Segovia liked.

Precisely the reverse happened with José Ramirez, who began to present guitars to Segovia to wean him away from the Hauser, but it was not until 1961 that Segovia returned to play a Ramirez.

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 1:36:22

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to RobJe)

Here is the Zavaletas version
"So, in 1922 when Segovia brought this guitar to Sr. Hernandez for repair, Santos suggested that as he had made the guitar, he should be allowed to replace the Ramirez label with his own. Segovia refused, but did suggest that he could place his label inside the guitar, with the inscription repaired by Santos Hernandez, which is what Santos latter did. In the mid-1930s, Santos offered to build a guitar for Segovia. In 1935, during a visit to Madrid, Segovia invited Santos to come and see a new instrument, that a copyist in Switzerland had just made for him. Not only was it an exact copy of the 1912 Hernandez/Ramirez but, as Segovia waxed lyrical over its virtues, Santos grew increasingly insulted at Segovia's lack of interest in the classical guitar he was building for him, and decided not to show him the instrument. He kept the guitar, and referred to it thereafter as La Inédita, the unpublished guitar."

That is pretty much as i described

The next part of the story is not published in the Zavaletas web page. I'll post it tonight (from a source other than my memory)

Also, I'm not trying to anger any Segovia fans but there is a tendancy to elevate his personality because of his musical acheivements. As a historical figure Segovia is supremely important in the story of the guitar. As a performer and artist he was the maestro of his day. His contribution to the development and use of nylon strings, recognition of the guitar as a classical instrument and addition to the repertoire are of incalculable value.

However these great acheivements dont excuse some of his behaviour. As a man he was far from perfect. The Santos Hernandez story is only one of several questionble acts during his career and personal life. There are other incidents with Miguel Llobet, Barrios and Lorca which I found to be very contradictory. I lived next door to La Herradura where Segovia lived in the latter part of his life and met many neighbours who knew and interacted with him on a daily basis. From the things they said about his personality, I would believe that many stories of this kind are likely to be true.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 1:39:10

elkabong!

Posts: 51
Joined: Mar. 31 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer) 2 votes

Here ya go !

Two 1970's era Condes .

A '72 Peghead built by Faustino Conde himself:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270339550246

& a '76 that was either built by Faustino or Mariano :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEUSX:IT&item=270339375357

Both of these guitars are GUARANTEED ! to be built by either Faustino or Mariano Conde.
Also GUARANTEED ! NOT to be built by the Sanchis'

& because I am open to offers; both of these "Original & Actual" Condes are less $$$ than the newer Condes ; built by the Sanchis crew.

* Please note: I'm not knocking the Sanchis guitars here BUT they are just that : Sanchis guitars...NOT built by the Condes...*

Feel free to contact me at : elkabong@mts.net
Cheers;
Rudy

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 3:59:35

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to elkabong!)

i'll give ya threee fifffy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 5:25:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to elkabong!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elkabong!

Here ya go !

Two 1970's era Condes .

A '72 Peghead built by Faustino Conde himself:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270339550246

& a '76 that was either built by Faustino or Mariano :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEUSX:IT&item=270339375357

Both of these guitars are GUARANTEED ! to be built by either Faustino or Mariano Conde.
Also GUARANTEED ! NOT to be built by the Sanchis'

& because I am open to offers; both of these "Original & Actual" Condes are less $$$ than the newer Condes ; built by the Sanchis crew.

* Please note: I'm not knocking the Sanchis guitars here BUT they are just that : Sanchis guitars...NOT built by the Condes...*

Feel free to contact me at : elkabong@mts.net
Cheers;
Rudy

Damn, still no sale on that 72??? Man, it is too expensive, and now the economy sucks....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 6:41:47