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cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

Fret Height? 
Well I just came back from a local luthier and I am gonna commission a guitar. Spent around an hour and 1/2 talking guitars and wood etc and to me it was causing my head to spin a little bit. I have three spruce types to choose for a top plate for example.

Anyways, he mentioned that he is using fret wire that are about 0.3mm taller than he was using before from a couple of years ago, and that this is a "new thing". Players don't seem to notice it.

Anyone care to comment on the impact of fret height on playbility?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:00:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
I can play easier with higher frets, and its not even a small effect in my eyes. It just doesnt get noticed as much i think. But i also like deep necks, i.e. with a lot of wood from the string to where your thumb is. Must be something to do with the architecture of the hand, how long your thumb is etc. Very interesting topic imo, but somehow overlooked.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:21:34
 
cathulu

Posts: 950
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From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to XXX) 
I like shallow necks myself, but I have only played a few guitars and as my skill level improves, who knows if my current taste is no longer valid? That is a constant problem, you never know if what you are doing can't be done better cause you are stuck with what you have...

PS, Deniz, can you describe why it is easier, is it that you need to place less pressure to cleanly fret a note? Does it effect intonation?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:25:10
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
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From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
I had mentioned fret-hight in a different thread. I believe it is an often overlooked problem with effects mistakenly blamed on the action. My favorite Conde has them really low, and i have all my guitars adjusted accordingly. To me -ad i love low action- it makes an enormous difference.

I once returned an Orange Conde, whose sound I loved, beacuse my hand felt unduly fatigued after palying. After lowring the action, much heated discussion went on about "moving" ever so slightly the neck angle. A procedure I opposed but ended up trying to no avail. I wish i had known then the intricate consequences of fret-hights.

Lowering the action is simply one step in reaching the ideal state of comfortable playabity but frets must necessarily be taken into account.

Classical guitarists seem to love them on the higher end, and i understand volume and tone are enhanced by so doing. Yet such set up is more appropriate for that style.

A simple test, is to have your luthier measure the guitar you enjoy playing and feel comfortable with for "hours".

My very personal opinion, naturally.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:33:39
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
On the advice of a famous well known luthier... lol guess... I checked out bass frets.

Let me tell you, a huge improvement! of course, I did it on a guitar i didnt care about so I'm not sure i'd advise you to do it yourself lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:37:59
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
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RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

I like shallow necks myself, but I have only played a few guitars and as my skill level improves, who knows if my current taste is no longer valid? That is a constant problem, you never know if what you are doing can't be done better cause you are stuck with what you have...


Of course i know that feeling. Hence one should try different guitars. As far as i am concerned, my preferences in necks havent changed from the beginning. I wouldnt say its a taste. I really explain this with basic biologic facts, the way my hand is shaped. These things just dont change.
Most players prefer thin/shallow necks. A very flat "D". I actually have to put my thumb a little more forward to build up (a little) "pressure", which i dont do on guitars with a thick neck. This way i can build pressure much faster.
I have a guitar that i have bought for 20 Euros... it looks exactly like a D. I only keep it because it has a great neck, and a faster response than my flamenco guitar. Havent changed the bass strings 1 year on it but it sounds also brighter than the flamenco with new strings on. (i only mean the bass strings. on the trebles there is only plastic sound)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:40:36
 
cathulu

Posts: 950
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From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
OK, I got high, I got low...

I am still stuck...

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:44:00
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
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From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

OK, I got high, I got low...

I am still stuck...


It'd be easier to shave them into a lower height than raise them, i suppose. So if you are really undecidedly stuck, try the higher propostion, with an understanding (from the Luthier) that the condition can be readily converted, if you so choose.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:51:45
 
HemeolaMan

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From: Chicago

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
ask the luthier.

what sound do you want.

simple.

On a gibson les paul low frets make it easier to play fast, but give less tone. You dont really have the adjustability of a les paul. Higher frets pretty much reduce the string distance to fret, effectively you have lower action

you will need to learn a lighter touch though, so you dont pull the strings sharp, almost like playing a scalloped fretboard but not to that extreme.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 13:55:41
 
cathulu

Posts: 950
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From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
Thanks, that is probably what I will have to do.

But I do wonder if there is a theoretical best fret height for a player or if there is a range of insensitivity that it doesn't matter that much given the high and low responses.

Taking it to extremes, zero frets I would imagine play well but you can't do chords very easily - at least I think but I don't know. Then if they are too low you may not get the note either, and you may have to press harder to make sure the string is on the fret with sufficient force.

So maybe it is best to go as low as you can while still getting a clean note?

I can imagine scenarios where higher frets might requiring lower pressure to get the note, I mean what would happen if they were so high you didn't touch the fret board?

I don't know what to think, and I don't have the experience to know what I want definitely...

PS Thanks HemeolaMan, just saw your post, I guess there are plus and minus to both approach.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 14:04:15
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

Anyways, he mentioned that he is using fret wire that are about 0.3mm taller than he was using before from a couple of years ago, and that this is a "new thing".

Have you thought about how much .3 mm is? The fingerboard will expand and contract nearly that much with changes in humidity. Your luthier is correct, the player won't notice any difference. We used to use wide oval DiMarzio frets and everyone seemed to like them. We stopped using them because they are so difficult to work with.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 14:44:29
 
Exitao

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From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
Is this "local" luthier in Abbotsford, or even more local?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 14:49:31
 
cathulu

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From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to Exitao) 
He is in abbotsford
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 15:51:55
 
cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
Yes, 0.3mm doesn't sound like much, but then I noticed a difference between a 52mm and a 53mm fretboard. By percentage that is a lot less than 0.3mm on a fret wire. It could have been the nut string spacing also...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 15:53:25
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
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From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
I just came back from the repair shop where my trusted luthier adjusted my new German Vazquez Rubio to harmonize to the specs of my Conde.

Height of the frets, measured from my Conde Hermanos AF/25 R, as originally set, is: 0.030''

This is quite a diparture from the specs Cat's luthier is advising.

Disclaimer: i am not criticizing anyone's choice of fret-heights, but simply reporting a "factual information" drawn from a famous guitar, but above all subjectively pleasing my style and habits.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2009 17:04:31
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

I just came back from the repair shop where my trusted luthier adjusted my new German Vazquez Rubio to harmonize to the specs of my Conde.

Height of the frets, measured from my Conde Hermanos AF/25 R, as originally set, is: 0.030''

This is quite a diparture from the specs Cat's luthier is advising.

Disclaimer: i am not criticizing anyone's choice of fret-heights, but simply reporting a "factual information" drawn from a famous guitar, but above all subjectively pleasing my style and habits.

I don't believe you. I think you're just trying to stir up a hornets nest. Being the Devil's Advocate is something you legal types love...

FWI:
0.030" = 0.8mm


Now, I just checked out my Flamenco and my classical, and its really hard to get the height, as I don't have the tools, but it appears that the Classical is just under 1mm and the Flamenco is just barely above 1mm.
1mm = 0.04"

The differences we're talking about are tenths of a millimetre. I could probably guess/bet that the difference in the classical and the flamenco are indeed about 0.03mm different (without a micrometer or caliper, I can't say for sure - we're talking less than the width of a gradient line on my steel rule).

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

He is in abbotsford


So, your questions about how much you might be involved in decision making have been answered? Care to share with us?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2009 1:41:56
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
0,8mm is a vVERY low fretwire. I dont think you can buy anything lower than 0,94mm.

So it must be a guitar which for some reason has had its frets lowered. I have played Condes and they did not have such low frets.

Fretheight is a compromise. Theory. Talking about same string setup.

Lower frets, pros: faster play and a feel that action is lower because distance between string and fingerboard (not fret) is smaller. relaxing feel in left hand.
cons. you have to fret you fingers more precise in order to produce a good tone. (closer to frets. will last less time, because you will wear them out faster.

Higher frets: Pros: you dont have to fret your fingers so precise in order to produce a good tone. They last longer.
cons. The guitar feels like it has a higher setup. More stressing feel in left hand.

Go for something normal. I will advice you a 1 - 1,1mm high wire. Making the wire wider can give you a feel of a lower fretwire because you dont bump so much when you slide up and down the neck, but intonation will be worse on worn out frets

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2009 8:43:49
 
cathulu

Posts: 950
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From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to Exitao) 
Thanks for the fret height measurements - I measured my Raimundo 145 with the bad action and it measures about 1.1mm and a classical luthier built guitar (steve heizen) and it also measures about 1.1mm. I think I am plus or minus 0.05mm. I measured by stacking feeler gauges and eyeballing it. It is hard to measure without a depth gauge. But 0.3mm would be visually noticeable.

Yes, I can see that gj fret height is quite low!

Based on a very limited sample it seems around 1mm - 1.1mm is norm, 0.8mm is low and anything over 1.1m is high?

I will ask the luthier what the finished fret height will be a check it against the fret measurements.

FYI I came across this from a classical guitar luthier's site, not the guy I am talking about... not sure if this would translate to Flamenco
"Playability is a primary concern. Frets are extra tall for ease of fretting, and fingerboards are radiused and relieved slightly to facilitate barring"

Anders, this was composed before your post and then came after... thanks for your input!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2009 9:08:07
 
ngiorgio

 

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

0,8mm is a vVERY low fretwire. I dont think you can buy anything lower than 0,94mm.

So it must be a guitar which for some reason has had its frets lowered. I have played Condes and they did not have such low frets.

Fretheight is a compromise. Theory. Talking about same string setup.

Lower frets, pros: faster play and a feel that action is lower because distance between string and fingerboard (not fret) is smaller. relaxing feel in left hand.
cons. you have to fret you fingers more precise in order to produce a good tone. (closer to frets. will last less time, because you will wear them out faster.

Higher frets: Pros: you dont have to fret your fingers so precise in order to produce a good tone. They last longer.
cons. The guitar feels like it has a higher setup. More stressing feel in left hand.

Go for something normal. I will advice you a 1 - 1,1mm high wire. Making the wire wider can give you a feel of a lower fretwire because you dont bump so much when you slide up and down the neck, but intonation will be worse on worn out frets


This is the best explanation I have seen regarding fret height.

FWIW, I have had the pleasure of owning and playing quite a few flamenco guitars. The easiest one to play was a negra which had larger than normal frets (which were this luthier's standard fret size) and a slightly radiused fingerboard. This guitar was just effortless on the left hand. Action was set low, well under 3mm at 12th fret. I owned his guitar for 5 years.

The most difficult one to play well, was a blanca which had extremely low frets. This guitar was in my possession for a long time. It was not hard on the left hand and played very fast, but was difficult to fret cleanly. I think that what makes the problem worse with super low frets is that they may not be crowned as well as higher frets. If the fret is too flat, it will be more difficult to be accurate with the left hand fingers, and may also lead to some intonation problems.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 7:55:43
 
Exitao

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From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
If you're using an instrument that you'll be placing a capo on very often, would it help to have a lower fret height, to prevent detuning?

Not that it should be more important than ease of fingering, but if all things were equal as far as the player was concerned, would it be worth looking at?


Umm... feels like it should be a dumb question because I should know this by now, but when you guys talk about measuring action, you're measureing from top of fret to the string, que no?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 8:02:42
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

This is the best explanation I have seen regarding fret height.


Thank you

exitao, you meassure from top of fret to bottom of sting. I dont think its a good idea to include the capo thing on choosing frets, but I think you are right in what you say.

I´ve just finished a setup of a peghead Blanca. 1mm high frets 2,1mm wide. (my standard, stewmac 048)
It has a 2,5mm setup 6th string 12th fret and 2mm 1st string using Luthier 30. The guitar works wonderfully without capo and with capo up to 7th fret. Just a slight buzz when you play hard.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 8:49:50
 
ngiorgio

 

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From: Florida, USA

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

Exitao | RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you're using an instrument that you'll be placing a capo on very often, would it help to have a lower fret height, to prevent detuning?

Not that it should be more important than ease of fingering, but if all things were equal as far as the player was concerned, would it be worth looking at?


Umm... feels like it should be a dumb question because I should know this by now, but when you guys talk about measuring action, you're measureing from top of fret to the string, que no?





Yes, with low frets very little retuning is required with a capo. Higher frets will need more adjustments after placing the capo.

Action is usually measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string at the 12th fret. -:)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 8:54:44
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
Thanks for the replies gents. I'd rate your posts high if we were allowed in this forum.

Good to know about how to measure.

As far as the capo question was, it was just an intellectual exercise, but it does seem that, si te da igual, and it doesn't affect the sound, why not keep them as low as comfortably possible in a Flamenco where you know you'll be using a capo often?

But some people do seem to suggest that it's easier to fret (while playing) when the strings are higher, that's interesting. I'll have to pull out my crappy classical and see if I can feel a difference.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 9:12:52
 
ngiorgio

 

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From: Florida, USA

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
quote:

I´ve just finished a setup of a peghead Blanca. 1mm high frets 2,1mm wide. (my standard, stewmac 048)
It has a 2,5mm setup 6th string 12th fret and 2mm 1st string using Luthier 30. The guitar works wonderfully without capo and with capo up to 7th fret. Just a slight buzz when you play hard.


Wow. That is a great set up ( though I would prefer Luthier 20's -;) ) If the strings were about 7mm off the top at the bridge, I would think that to be absolute perfection.

One of the reasons to have a guitar built by a luthier who knows how to play it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 9:58:26
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
The guitar is brand new and has 7,8mm above soundboard at bridge. It gives it a some room for the neck to set a bit over time.

Another important thin: Its 8mm above soundboard at the soundhole

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 13:36:25
 
ngiorgio

 

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Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: Fret Height? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Another important thin: Its 8mm above soundboard at the soundhole


Anders, how do you achieve that balance of string height off the soundboard at both the bridge and at the soundhole?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 14:16:03
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Fret Height? (in reply to cathulu) 
by building relatively flat.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2009 23:29:20
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