compas

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compas

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hassurbanipal

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

compas

ah,
another compas question....
great!!!!
I play with metronome, no problem, I play also with the metronome you find here on this side.
But when I play without the metronome I am lost in playing falseta's.
the rythm with the chords is no problem and falseta's who have the whole rythm feeling also but it's when it's getting difficult with more contra tiempos.
How do you count then?
For example, when a falseta starts on 12 I have no problem
but when it starts on 10 i just can't seem to get the feeling when the 12 is there or the three after that.
maybe a stupid question and I know lot's has been written, but do you count in two's then or not?
or how do you work on that, it's better then without metronome because then i can feel it better and you know exactly when you're right or wrong. that is for me the case.

thanks for responding.

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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens."
E. Satie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2007 9:42:10

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

The metronome is a tool for calculating those kinds of things, but you've got to learn to use it that way, and not just for training to feel the beat by repetition which is another way to use the metronome. Both are great by themselves but useless without the other. Calculation of rhthm may also take staves. You write the music out, count it for your self and make notes, then use the metronome and check your work, then after you get the basic concept you turn the metronome off and attempt to play the peice. It may take a few times but after you work at it, you should get it. If you can't get it on your own seek help from someone who can be there to manually help you, someone who can listen and make decisions based on your playing and the score and notes, with the help of a metronome.

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2007 9:56:22

hassurbanipal

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

thanks gary for your answer.
I just don't want to be a slave of the metronome if you understand what I mean....it has to be possible to play without it and still knowing where you are in compas. It's because i've been playing with metronome for so long that I notice when I play without my back up is gone.

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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens."
E. Satie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2007 13:15:57

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

I asked the same thing to a teacher who's a very well known virtuoso on the flamenco guitar. He said he only knows he's in compás about 70% of the time. He said you can't always know if something is in compás. The extremely complex falsetas are worked out beforehand and when played the player relies on it being correct because he tested it beforehand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2007 13:58:55

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

quote:

it's better then without metronome because then i can feel it better

I think its a mistake to think that way.

If you get lost, then you dont really know the falsetta

You should be able to "feel" it the most when playing to a perfect quarter
note pulse, like a metronome or palmas groove.

Its giving you the context, so you dont even have to think about it.
It carries you along.

That's how i see it.
Then again, watch out, cause im the most evil son of a bitch
on this foro. I could be just trying to throw you off.

But its something to think about either way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2007 14:18:02

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: compas (in reply to ToddK)

It looks like you know a melody but aren't used to playing it the way it was rhythmically meant to be.

For me the 12-compás has two distinct "personalities". Start playing on 1 and a Soleá will seem rhythmically different than if you start on 12, even though you're playing the same thing. I think switching between the two is what makes most players fall out of compás.

Same thing starting on 10. Starting on 8 would make it Serranas and feels even more strange. You have to get used to these changes. Not to mention the more starting points you're used to, the better your chances of coming back in to compás if you space out.

Try just practising rhythm so: start on 1 - then when you get to 12 accent it strongly and get that feeling as if the sequence would start there - then when you get around to 12 again deliberately DON'T accent it, get that feeling as if the sequence would start on 1 again - keep repeating this. This is known as the "llamada" for accompanyment and is done constantly in solo playing too.

You can do the same with starting at 10 etc. Eventually it won't seem as strange.

Hope this helps! Otherwise I can look for an example of what I mean.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2007 15:26:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

IMO and experience teaching and playing with others, those who "can't play without the metronome" on, or get lost or speed up and down, whatever, usually are not really playing TO the metronome correctly to begin with. I hear people often chasing the accents, getting lost and picking back up, etc, FOLLOWING the metronome. That is not right. The idea is to make the metronome FOLLOW YOU. Actually I got the from TODDK at somepoint in the past, I mean he said that and that is right on.

But you CAN cheat a little. Learn how to tap your foot when you play to the metronome. I don't care if you tap accents, every other beat, every 3 etc, whatever, but train your foot to keep time or give a reference. It really helps when you have synchopation, if you lock in to that beat your BODY is giving you physically. Singers that sing good for dancers ALL can do palmas and sing at the same time. You have to train yourself that way so it becomes natural. I don't know any players that play REAL tight, and CAN'T tap their foot. So using the foot is a "cheat" but, it will help you when playing with no palmas, percussion, or metronome. When you get to the point that you trust your foot as much as a metronome, you can even do away with practicing with it. But it is good from time to time to "check" yourself.

Check your self by recording your playing along to a click, and be as critical as you would be with anyone. Be more critical actually if you can.

By critical, here is a hard truth. When you play with a metronome clicking, there are only two things happening. You are either ON the click or OFF the click. When playing off notes, contras or whatever the rhythm is that is not ON the click, you will hear it just fine AGAINST the click. When you are playing note ON the beat, you should not be able to hear the click at all. Try just playing notes ON the click repeatedly, until it disappears all together. Then you are playing correct and on beat.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2007 22:22:10

hassurbanipal

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal) 1 votes

hey guys,
thanks for the good information.
I think a lot can be said about this topic.
I played this weekend with a 70-year old men who always played flamenco the traditional way.
it's strange because he doesn't care about amazing syncopation or falseta's out of this world. he only has one thing and that is compas.
So when I played with him, he said: you have good technique and you can play in compas most of the time but not all the time. Stop playing those falseta's and return to the basique of flamenco and what it really is, rythm, rythm and again rythm. no correr!!
don't run, first learn how to walk. and it's the best advice allthough it was hard for me to take this critisiscm, he was right.
I play right with the metronome, really ricardo I do...:))
but without it I'm lost in difficult falseta's not with the basic strumming. I accompagny dance so I know what's compas and how to play with it but not with really hard falseta's.
and the other thing that is difficult is tempo...it's difficult not to speed up.
but I'm learning and will try to do it as John said , put accents on different beats, I'm sure it will help.
And I'm already trying to do my foot while playing on the metronome so I can feel more what I'm doing.
All the best and thanks guys
viva el arte and the long posts

_____________________________

Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens."
E. Satie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2007 8:25:25

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: compas (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

IMO and experience teaching and playing with others, those who "can't play without the metronome" on, or get lost or speed up and down, whatever, usually are not really playing TO the metronome correctly to begin with. I hear people often chasing the accents, getting lost and picking back up, etc, FOLLOWING the metronome. That is not right. The idea is to make the metronome FOLLOW YOU. Actually I got the from TODDK at somepoint in the past, I mean he said that and that is right on.

But you CAN cheat a little. Learn how to tap your foot when you play to the metronome. I don't care if you tap accents, every other beat, every 3 etc, whatever, but train your foot to keep time or give a reference. It really helps when you have synchopation, if you lock in to that beat your BODY is giving you physically. Singers that sing good for dancers ALL can do palmas and sing at the same time. You have to train yourself that way so it becomes natural. I don't know any players that play REAL tight, and CAN'T tap their foot. So using the foot is a "cheat" but, it will help you when playing with no palmas, percussion, or metronome. When you get to the point that you trust your foot as much as a metronome, you can even do away with practicing with it. But it is good from time to time to "check" yourself.

Check your self by recording your playing along to a click, and be as critical as you would be with anyone. Be more critical actually if you can.

By critical, here is a hard truth. When you play with a metronome clicking, there are only two things happening. You are either ON the click or OFF the click. When playing off notes, contras or whatever the rhythm is that is not ON the click, you will hear it just fine AGAINST the click. When you are playing note ON the beat, you should not be able to hear the click at all. Try just playing notes ON the click repeatedly, until it disappears all together. Then you are playing correct and on beat.

Ricardo

Hi Ricardo, that's all great advice.
One thing more I might add (and this will by no means be the approptiate next step for many people) once all of the things that you suggest have been done (for years) the asymetrical tapping that Paco does (two out of three beats) is really good too.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2007 10:37:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

quote:

I play right with the metronome, really ricardo I do...:))
but without it I'm lost in difficult falseta's not with the basic strumming. I accompagny dance so I know what's compas and how to play with it but not with really hard falseta's.
and the other thing that is difficult is tempo...it's difficult not to speed up.

Yeah, they guy was saying "walk don't run", but maybe refering to YOU rushing the tempo.

Again, you may think you are "right" with the metronome, but perhaps you are playing falsetas (not strumming since I take your word it is "perfect") too much ON TOP of the beat. You need to keep things in the middle. In some cases you need to feel like you are "dragging" things to stay right smack on. Escpecially is if your tendancy IS to rush. Take A LOT of care with SPACES in the music. That is where people speed up, and when the foot really helps. Also, you need to relax when performing. Anyone can start speeding up if they are nervous and have "doubts".

So many folks take up the cajon that were never really "percussionists" with pro ensembles. Inevitable that they start rushing when they should not, even guys that understand what practicing with a metronome means. It takes patience and care, but every note and space needs to be felt in the right spot, to keep from speeding up or slowing down. (Speeding up is the most common problem).

Ricardo
PS, there are times tempo moves deliberately in Flamenco accomp., but we are not talking about those moment HERE, and the fact that that happens is not an excuse to NOT practice with a metronome IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2007 14:42:13

hassurbanipal

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

thanks ricardo,

I will try to do it like you say and to give the music more space and not speeding up. It's a lon,g work of trial and error but you know what they say; in rythm you can recognize a good from a bad musician and I think a lot can be said about that but not that it is not true.
I'm already trying not to run but to walk, no paco del ucia falseta's, just the basic and essential flamenco. and compas, and again compas and again compas, in the morning , in the evening and even sometimes at night but I will not tell you about that.

thanks

_____________________________

Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens."
E. Satie

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2007 9:28:17

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

Hi everyone,

I enjoyed reading your posts because this is a subject that I find very interesting. Here are a few thoughts of my own, and I'd enjoy reading more of your ideas:

When you're warmed up and playing well, you get a kind of overview that makes is easy to play over groups of beats, maybe not too different from speaking in sentences rather than word by word. Keeping those groups of beats tightly in line is like using the tone of your voice to heighten the impact of your spoken message. The are plenty of similarities between playing and speaking: letters-words-sentences = ...you get the idea.

Taking things a little further -or maybe just askew-, I think there are three main elements involved in one's perception of playing: (1) The idea itself insofar as keeping track of what notes come next, in order to play the idea right. (2) The feeling of your hands on the instrument, in order to minimize effort and play the idea efficiently. (3) A precise and coherent "rhythmic architecture" or succession of beats, in order to play the idea with soul. It's the "pulse" that ToddK mentioned. This third element is obviously the most abstract and, in my opinion, is easily the most neglected of the three. I don't know much about it, because it's a big mystery, now isn't it? But, when you're able to clearly perceive and project a precise succession of beats, it's a lot easier to keep the other two elements under control. It's obviously very important to play the right notes and to play them cleanly, but I think players rarely harness the full potential of any given idea because they're not as focused as they could be on rhythmic precision. They're often focused on playing something "right" rather than appreciating how the falseta falls into the rhythmic context, and how their fingers fall into the falseta.

Of course, that goes for my playing, too! Don't think that I just want to criticize others! Gee, maybe the only reason that I've got this idea in my head is because I need to work more on my rhythm. Hmmm

Anyway, counting while playing, or perceiving that overview of groups of beats, is not easy when you have to deal with distractions like fatigue or an unclear memory of a falseta.

So let's see some more ideas on this subject, please!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2007 22:19:56

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: compas (in reply to Ricardo)

Hi Ricardo,

Maybe you can help with an approach to play the syncopation in the last compas of the following 2 examples;

I have no idea how to practice getting this sort of thing in compas. Any ideas appreciated.

Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2007 8:03:23

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: compas (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

counting while playing, or perceiving that overview of groups of beats, is not easy when you have to deal with distractions like fatigue or an unclear memory of a falseta

Oh yeah, the things that can happen to me when I space out. Fatigue is the worst, especially if you're worrying about not being fit on op of it. Before doing any accompanyment I actually do the exercise I described above to make sure my head's on straight.

For me it's about regularly playing all palos, if only 5-10 minutes a day. I don't know how it is for Spaniards who grow up with flamenco - if they spend a year doing no seguirias/serranas and can still just pick up a guitar and accompany it well with no problems. Probably after decades. I need to warm my head up, in any case.

At the moment I still have a 9 hour office job and am accompanying serranas, soleá por bulerías, peteneras, polo, fandangos, farruca, alegrías, garrotín, guajíras, rondenas, tientos. Some for classes, some for shows, some for both in slightly different versions. I found for things like this it's better to do a little of everything everyday. Even if you think it's not enough, it really is and helps a lot.

Kind of got off the beaten track there...

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2007 9:08:20

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: compas (in reply to John O.)

Don't sell yourself short John, everybody experiances fatigue, and it is common for all people around the world. You've got to rest some days from just working and running around. Having the energy to play is a lot of the battle, and I find that fatigue can turn my own perception askew and make it hard to even appreciate what I am doing no matter what it is. It's a fact of the human condition. Having the right self perception is that edge that musicians talk about, though I wouldn't take it to the extreme. Rest and relaxation is a much better plan than using drugs as you probably know. You've got to keep yourself healthy to play. And this part of the thread is a valid consideration, that and maintaining the right self esteem. It makes a lot of sense.
Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 5:03:12

duende121

Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 24 2005

RE: compas (in reply to AndrewE)

Hi Andrew

it's contratiempo of the contratiempo, do it with thumb strokes por arriba. The best is to play that with a dancer in front of you and a palmero on your side..
by the way, what about Antonio Jero?

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¡Vamos!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 6:01:56

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: compas (in reply to duende121)

Hi Martin,

Thumb with a golpe - for the iiamada example?

Any idea of the technique used in beats 7-10 in the last compas of the escobilla example?

The Jero stuff is coming along nicely.

Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 6:26:16

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

Now, isn't compas somthing you have, or just feel? If you are trying to learn compas you could spend a lot of money and time to aquire something that comes natural to some people. You could try for years and never quite get it. But, then again you could find that break thru, and for that you still try.....that is a quality in musicianship that has to be truely admired. For that, it has the foro buzzing with activity, and the music never stops....

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 6:51:09

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: compas (in reply to gato)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gato

Now, isn't compas somthing you have, or just feel?

Do you really mean that or is it a joke ?
I think when you're not rhythmically by nature, you will probably also never feel/understand compas.
But when you are, there's no reason you couldn't learn to feel it by working hard.

I know some andalucian people who are brought up here and only know flamenco from their parents records. Believe me, they start a llamada on 5th count without blinking their eyes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 9:19:20

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: compas (in reply to koella)

I think Gary was just analyzing and not really stating an opinion.

I don't think anybody 'has' compás. There's a point though where you stop seeing it as a formula for playing the correct rhythm and just play what you feel and it's right and feels good and natural. So yeah, you feel it.

It's no different than learning a language. Starting to learn German at 16 I had the biggest trouble saying or understanding the most basic things. I was living in Germany right at the source though, so after about 2 years I was more or less able to say what I needed to get along. Now after 15 years you'll still hear the slightest accent (on bad days a bit stronger) and every once in a blue moon I'll hear a word I've never heard before. You could wake me up in the middle of the night and I could ask you what the f@!k your problem is in perfect German without thinking

Flamenco is the same. The most important thing to do as a beginner is accompany at classes, though - you can actually EARN a bit of money and learn once you're good enough to play basic compás and a few simple falsetas. You'll be forced to deal with compás, counting, acceleration etc., building up strength in your hand and getting used to playing in front of a group. Then it doesn't take long before you can hear which guitarists practise with a metronome and which don't.

And you can then use that earned money to take trips to Spain and learn from the pros, being in Europe this doesn't cost much more than what I make extra accompanying and teaching. Since I recently started doing this my playing has made a major change though I couldn't even really say what I'm doing differently.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 9:56:39

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: compas (in reply to gato)

quote:

Having the energy to play is a lot of the battle, and I find that fatigue can turn my own perception askew and make it hard to even appreciate what I am doing no matter what it is.

I hear that. I can get so lost in the run-around that I sometimes have to stop and ask "Why the hell am I doing this? Am I enjoying it?" But if you say no enough eventually people will realize they can get along without you, so rather too much than nothing...

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 10:12:47

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: compas (in reply to koella)

I wrote what I wrote, and believe me it's not a joke, though I guess it could be percieved that way. There are people that get the music and never really have to pick it apart, and learn by practicing with a metronome for years. Having compas just means that you are a natural, and it's within you. Feeling it is that natural process in percieving and performing. Believe me when I say that I ment no harm in saying, it was just a thought before bedtime. Take it easy now koella, there is no reason to be angry, just be.....I said that I admire people who work so hard. And you know someday the'yre going to get it!

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 15:06:38

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)

I'm not angry.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 15:49:15

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: compas (in reply to koella)

That's good koella, you know we are here to enjoy life and what we do. Perhaps we get so caught up into what is said on the foro that we take it too seriously, and take it too personal. I would hate to think that I am judged for every thing that I say. It is just a forum and nothing more. Tomorrow will be another day, and more posts and replies so have fun with it today! That's all that I am doing....

'Gotta go, 'enjoy!

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 17:10:19