[Deleted]

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

[Deleted]

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Guest

[Deleted]

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2007 0:08:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Anybody got any opinions.

Well of course man!

Regarding solo Guitar, tapping the foot can be the percussion to give meaning to your synchopation if you can hear the taps well. There are vids of Paco where the foot IS the percussion. Also some Audio like that. Of course if you have a more free to move tempo, you can forget the foot and just play what you think feels good and expressive. I have had to play in a bar stool and don't get to do any foot. In that case you really have to take care with spaces and play staccato and really give the audience a sense of the beat, even your body language helps.

Tanguillos
Old or new it should be like a mix of 2/4 with 16th subdivision and 6/8 with triplet 8ths. So always you feel two beats. The implied 3/4 by the 1,3,5, I would erase from my mind if I were you. I don't think you want to get stuck in that feel. A good exercise is to practice the same falseta and rhythm pattern, repetative, the first time as 2/4 like an 8th and two 16ths (1, &ah2, &ah1, etc), the second time as straight triplets (1&ah,2&ah). Keep the beat solid, but play around with timing of the "&" which you need to accent. It is all about where it is relative to the steady beat. When you can move it into different spots, even have it vaguely caught between the triplet and the 16th feel, but keep the beat solid, you really start to get it in control.

The only thing about modern tanguillo is they tend to stick to the straight triplet feel more. But you really need to keep the 2 beat feel going. Practice with a metronome, so it is only 2 beats, and you work on changing the feel of the "&".

Palmas can go a lot of ways. 2,3, 5 is good. Even in a way where 5 is a hair late, so it is more like 2/4. Vicente had the palmas go 1,2,3,4,5. Someone else I heard had just 1 and 4. Most important I think is the internal beat, or the foot tap in 2.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2007 6:57:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Guest)

quote:

When I don't have backup the general listener may not hear the compas because of the phrasing and because without cues I go out. What does anyone think of this???

Specifically regarding modern Tanguillos, I remembered coming across this on youtube. Pretty convincing even without percussion:

Notice another version next to it, but it is out of synch, but again convincing.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2007 6:39:24

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2007 19:24:29

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo:

quote:

Specifically regarding modern Tanguillos, I remembered coming across this on youtube. Pretty convincing even without percussion:

It's great; I especially like the way that the rhythmic/melodic groupings are often 5+7, though this could create a pretty esoteric impression of the compás for the general listener!

Kevin:

quote:

When I don't have backup the general listener may not hear the compas because of the phrasing

I really don't think the general listener will miss anything, and I'm sure they'll enjoy it regardless. (I know this may not address your concerns, but...)

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2007 20:14:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Part of the question is about improvising phrasing which is another ballgame.

Why? It is still rhythmic based. In fact being a good improviser is all about the rhythm, and IMO easier to keep solid than an advanced "piece" interpretation. I mean you create on the spot OUT of the rhythm, not trying to put a melody IN the rhythm. Hope you see what I mean? Anyway, again I think the foot is important.

quote:

though this could create a pretty esoteric impression of the compás for the general listener!

Yes man,but even with palmas and cajon you are still going to have tons of aficionados CLUELESS as to what is really happening in the music. Not to meantion a general audience. Synchopation won't come out to a general audience, but rushing or dragging will. But again that is not going to be seen as "bad" by most people anyway. Depends how much that is happening. Folks not inside the rhythm can "sense" eveness even thought they are not FEELING the rhythm necessarily.

Anyway, my point is it is not so big deal. If you are worried that high level players will know you are out of compas w/ no percussion?? I say don't worry about it. With or without percussion, the more advanced player will know where your level is at just from how you play a few notes.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2007 21:32:12

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Yes man,but even with palmas and cajon you are still going to have tons of aficionados CLUELESS as to what is really happening in the music. Not to meantion a general audience.

Lol! And loads of good points, as usual.

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2007 0:15:19

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Ricardo)

Great thread! I think that you're right about rhythm Ricardo, and I think phrasing is vital, and it's a matter of understanding poly rhythm, when you get down to it, otherwise flamenco compas would be different, and much more like western music or something else altogether. It evolved out of it's relation to the flamenco dance technique (and palmas), so guitarists have to consider that sense of poly rhythm at all times, and yet it can come naturally. The flamenco guitar technique is rooted in it. Flamenco came as a sum of it's parts, cante, dance, palmas, guitar, and none would be without the others, so it's good, to get into all of it, including rhthm instrumentation. We learn that way, much faster (!) than just specializing in guitar and hoping we get it right without the others.

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2007 0:41:37

guitardode

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun. 29 2007

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Guest)

HI
Yes great thread-- here I am really new to the site- but playing for more than 20 years learning loads thanks to great informative players like ricardo just great stuff

_____________________________

GUITARDODE

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2007 23:26:46

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The True Solo (in reply to gato)

Hey Gato I have to agree 100 percent with your point on percussion. I find it much much better to clarify my ideas about rhythm away from the guitar trying to think as a percussionist and then bring them back to the guitar maybe first on one string, then one chord, then a pair of chords. Then I can relax when I work on the acutal piece since my rhythmic understanding helps my fingers dance. Too often when I have tried to understand the rhythm of a piece simply by trying to play it over and over my understanding gets more and more confused by the negative reinforcement of hearing myself playing it wrong again and again.

I love listening to funk guitarists and in particular funk bass players and listening to the subtle ways they choke notes and use slaps and grace notes so that you know exactly where the beat is even though they seldom play notes on it. This is very much like touches and ghost notes on a hand drum, they are real subtle but so important to the feel and even keeping the technique in order.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2007 0:06:45

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: The True Solo (in reply to guitarbuddha)

D, it's good to see that kind of passion in a musician these days when so much music is typical and cheap, where you can visualize the art of playing and actually see it in other players and their techniques. I think that makes for great musicianship and overall, great music. I don't know about you but I credit my guitar playing to years of cross training on other instruments, as well as musical forms, and I think that helps in a great way. But to see what is going on in any musical form, really gets us to that place where we 'stop going out of compas,' and get down to the music, and start to connect with what is going on, and my philosophy is what ever helps is something to be greatful for...So keep searching and don't ever stop, it's a life of learning and seeing that we all have got to do.....

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2007 3:38:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The True Solo (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Hey Gato I have to agree 100 percent with your point on percussion. I find it much much better to clarify my ideas about rhythm away from the guitar trying to think as a percussionist and then bring them back to the guitar maybe first on one string, then one chord, then a pair of chords. Then I can relax when I work on the acutal piece since my rhythmic understanding helps my fingers dance. Too often when I have tried to understand the rhythm of a piece simply by trying to play it over and over my understanding gets more and more confused by the negative reinforcement of hearing myself playing it wrong again and again.

Very well put. I often try to learn falsetas driving in the car, simply by singing along to the melody (more or less) and especially the rhythm. Anytime I sing an attack or note at the wrong time, I rewind until I get it exactly right. Otherwise, if you just kind of vaguely understand the timing, when you sit down and start playing it, your fingers take over and learn it wrong, and that is bad. One should be able to sit down and sing through an entire piece if he really understands it, even if the pitches are wrong, at least the rhythm just to a foot tap or hand clap is better.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2007 19:54:59

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The True Solo (in reply to Ricardo)

It is good to see that there are people as crazy as me around Ricardo. I recently spent a whole month away from the guitar on a bicycle.But the whole time I was breathing and peddling in quintuplets since I know so little about them and almost never use them. I hate to think that I might be missing out on something you see.

The car is a great place to practice hand drumming, I've gotten a very worn steering wheel now

.

I hope you have been having a good summer Ricardo, how was Nunez' course ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2007 20:09:38