advice regarding work on older barba

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

osangar

Posts: 22
Joined: May 2 2007

advice regarding work on older barba

Hello all,

Theres a chance I might be getting an older barba guitar (late 70s) and it has a few "issues" that go beyond the cosmetic. I have attached a picture so you see what Im talking about. Theres a split that starts apparently a couple inches below the treble bridge and splits up to two splits for several inches up under the golpeader (see pic). Also when this crack was cleated, the top was refinished in lacquer. The top is apparently still very active and the guitar as good as ever and I am in favor of giving the seller the benefit of the doubt.

Now, my questions are: Is the option of removing the lacquer and doing a new french polish job even a viable option or will this risk damaging the top even more at its age/stage. And considering the location of the split, will this affect the playability of the instrument if its going to be played daily?

Thanks
Moe

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2007 23:01:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

Hi Moe.

I attach the photo so that everyone can see it.

If the repair of the crack has been done well and the guitar sounds well, it shouldn´t be a problem.
In the guitar world we are very paranoid about cracks, but a good repair makes the guitar as strong as ever. In the violin world, cracks are normal. Most old violins have several. I had a violin with a crack going all the way through the top and there werent any sound or structural problems with that. Violins are easyer to repair, because its easy to remove the top, but a good repairman can finish guitars to a high level as well.

With respect of the finish. Why French polish it. If you like the sound and looks, I would leave it. Its an old babe. They are wonderfull but dont look like young ones

If you leave the guitar to someone who knows what he/she´s doing, it can be french polished without problems.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 8:18:29

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

Another thing.

This guitar is most probably build without a bridge reinforcement underneath the sound board. This gives a lot of stress right there where the bridge ends. Sometimes resulting in a crack like this one (long)

For that reason I would never build without a bridge reinforcement... Now a lot of people will wonder.. what sounds the best... And I will repeat what I´ve said before.. Its not so much what you put inside the guitar, but how you work it. (braces and stuff) Wonderfull guitars have been made with or without bridge reinforcement, 5 braces, 7 braces, closing struts, no closing struts, symetrical bracing, non symetrical bracing etc. you name it.

The important thing is to achieve a balance.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 8:25:10

hhmusic

Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

i would worry about the lacquer finish, though.

when the top has been refinished on a flamenco - especially finished in a hasty manner (and lacquer is much easier and cheaper to apply than french polish shellac) - it can often mean that the face was badly worn, and that it has been sanded to remove nail wear (thereby thinning the top more than intended when it was built) then cheaply lacquered over.

i have owned 2 or 3 flamencos that, sometime in their past, had been repaired or reworked and lacquered on top or back, and will never buy one again. in my experience, it has always been a bad sign. clearly if the guitar was french polished, the right way to repair it was with french polish. either the repair luthier did not have the skills (which could indicate the repair was incompetent), or a previous owner did not want to spend the money to have it done right (which often suggests they bought a beat up flamenco cheaply and had it refinished cheaply to try to flip at a profit).

of course, this guitar may be an exception. but, in my experience, a guitar that's been lacquered over, especially the top, usually indicates problems. on top of that, it seriously diminishes resale value, and practically guarantees that no dealer would buy or consign it from you, if you wanted to do that in the future. good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 11:34:31

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Another thing.

This guitar is most probably build without a bridge reinforcement underneath the sound board. This gives a lot of stress right there where the bridge ends. Sometimes resulting in a crack like this one (long)

For that reason I would never build without a bridge reinforcement... Now a lot of people will wonder.. what sounds the best... And I will repeat what I´ve said before.. Its not so much what you put inside the guitar, but how you work it. (braces and stuff) Wonderfull guitars have been made with or without bridge reinforcement, 5 braces, 7 braces, closing struts, no closing struts, symetrical bracing, non symetrical bracing etc. you name it.

The important thing is to achieve a balance.

hiii anders how are you!
I like your way of understanding the guitar and wood.
the good Luthier is the one who can feel the guitar and its wood and can talk to them.
can you tell us how you acheive that balance and what is this?
thanx!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 15:21:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

quote:

can you tell us how you acheive that balance and what is this?

I eat Kelloggs Super crispy integral super flakes every morning.

Well, I think its a matter or working hard and liking what you do.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 15:50:29

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

thank you Anders it seems that you like to hide your secrets

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 18:28:54

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to hhmusic)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hhmusic

(and lacquer is much easier and cheaper to apply than french polish shellac) -

I keep hearing how easy and cheap it is to apply a lacquer finish.

Once the guitar is completely finish sanded and masked it takes me about 2 1/2 to 3 weeks to apply a lacquer finish. If done properly a lacquer finish is extremely thin and hand polished to a very high luster comparable to the best french polish. Each coat of finish is hand sanded with 1200 grit sandpaper and the wash coat is sanded with 2000. The hand polishing usually takes two full days. It requires good quality equipment and ideally a clean spray room with filtered air. Instrument grade lacquer is around $50/gallon premixed. It's neither cheap nor easy.

John Shelton

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 18:44:47

osangar

Posts: 22
Joined: May 2 2007

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

thanks for the input everyone. Sounds like a very risky endeavour and probably not even worth it :P oh well :(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 1:33:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

quote:

thank you Anders it seems that you like to hide your secrets

I´m trying not to hide any secrets because I dont think there are any. I just dont know what to say. Its not something you put together in a few words.

Osanger: With a guitar like this it would be a good idea to have it revised by a professional who has no economical interest in the guitar.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 8:36:01

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I´m trying not to hide any secrets because I dont think there are any. I just dont know what to say. Its not something you put together in a few words.

I know that Andres and that is a what makes you feel what you do!
can you join us here:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/m_63602/appid_/p_1/mpage_1/key_/tmode_1/smode_1/s_/tm.htm#63846
thanx!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 20:41:03

hhmusic

Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Once the guitar is completely finish sanded and masked it takes me about 2 1/2 to 3 weeks to apply a lacquer finish. If done properly a lacquer finish is extremely thin and hand polished to a very high luster comparable to the best french polish...It's neither cheap nor easy.

First off, I'm not a luthier and never claim to know what luthiers know. I'm just a player, who has played and owned many, many flamenco guitars and has talked to many luthiers about their methods. So, I think "if done properly" must be the operative phrase here. I'm sure your lacquer work is spectacular, since you obviously take great care with it. But most don't spend such time - which, of course, is why nearly all Valencian guitars, and Madrid workshop guitars (Ramirez, Pedro de Miguel, many Condes, others) are lacquered. For them, if lacquer were as time consuming as shellac, they would just stick with shellac. (And actually, I'm curious why you do not?)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2007 21:10:50

osangar

Posts: 22
Joined: May 2 2007

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

I could be wrong, but I think it probably has to do with standardising one process in making the finish on the instruments.. Most high end guitars tend to have varnish on sides and back and shellac on the top, but apparently shellac provices only marginal gains in tone on the newer types of varnish and the latest methods of applying it (allows for a much thinner application). At the same time you get a sturdier finish that will also cost less since they can do the whole guitar in one shot... Thats my guess anyways!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2007 2:43:22

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

quote:

Most high end guitars tend to have varnish on sides and back and shellac on the top

Are you sure.... I think most good guitars are either french polished or sprayed.

I totally agree in that a good spray lacquer can be very good, I also agree in that many very expensive guitars have a horrible and thick finish because their production is so standartized that they never polish the guitar the way John do.

A good lacquer has the advantage of being stronger, a good shellack the advantage of being easyer to repair. Sound.... well, I´m not to sure, but most builders using shellack do it because they find it to be superior soundwise. I leave the judging to you guys

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2007 9:52:00

osangar

Posts: 22
Joined: May 2 2007

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I thought shellac was french polish... Well the trend (classical side is all i know about really) seems to be thin layer of varnish on sides and back for durability and french polish on the top. Ive seen Humphreys and Rucks done that way, although most others are all french polish, you're right. For some reason I saw a couple of well known builders do one thing and assumed the rest are doing the same which is a mistake!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2007 14:55:10

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to hhmusic)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hhmusic

quote:

For them, if lacquer were as time consuming as shellac, they would just stick with shellac. (And actually, I'm curious why you do not?)

I have nothing against french polish, it's probably the most beautiful finish for musical instruments as well as being the traditional finish. But as Anders stated. Lacquer is more durable. I'm one of those people whose sweat turns french polished guitars to a nice milky color and I can't stand to put a cloth between myself and the guitar.

John Shelton

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2007 15:26:33

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: advice regarding work on older barba (in reply to osangar)

Hi osangar

I personally like Barba guitars a lot. Currently i'm building a guitar after the Barba design. According to the information that i have, there is in fact no bridge patch used by this luthier. However i don't think that this crack has developped due to the missing bridge patch. Jus't make sure the crack is repaired professionally (best by Barba himself) and forget about the crack. The guitar will sound as good as ever before.

Armando

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2007 19:19:18