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Granadinas
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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 RE: Granadinas (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
(Listen to Luis el Zambo for instance, his malaguena starts with media granaina).
Are you sure of this? I've always had a hard time distinguishing some Granainas and Malagueñas (cante, not guitar). Only recently have I been trying to pay a little more attention to the cante melody. There's a particular melody line that I've heard in both that's causing most of my confusion. It's the same as main melody of 'Serrana' and occurs about 2:30 into El Zambo's Malagueña, as you mentioned. The problem is I don't have too many recordings of Granainas to really compare them. And, at least where I live, Granaina isn't heard very often in live performances, whereas Malaguenas are sung regularly. (Some palos go in and out of vogue for periods of time). I personally prefer Granainas. I guess I'll just have to wait for the pendulum to swing back. Anyway, there's seems to be a fine line between Malagueña and Granaina. I recently read somewhere that Granaina was actually a form of Malagueña that Antonio Chacon designated as 'Granaina'.
Diego Clavel recorded a 2 CD set of nothing but various styles of Malagueña. I'm thinking of getting it, but I don't know if I could take that much Malagueñas. 
On to another subject regarding the Fandangos family in general and the guitar: the best explanation I've heard as to why the guitar melodies are so distinctive in Tarantas, Granainas, Malagueñas was given by Merengue de Cordoba. He said that guitarists wanted to make their regional fandangos unique sounding, hence the immediately recognizable tones of each. Sounds like as good an explanation as any to me.
Phil
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Date Jul. 2 2006 12:15:38
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Guest
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RE: Granadinas (in reply to Phil)
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Ojo: the granaía is the simpler and less embellished version of the media granaína. This seems to make little sense, it may be due to an old mistake, but it is so. Therefore the granaína is sung first, as a warmup for the media.
It is likely that the simpler version is a development of a fandango or verdial, but more than likely that the media is an invention of Antonio Chacón.
Aurelio Sellés used to sing a granaína as a warmup for the malagueña doble de Mellizo. Some Cádiz singers still do this, though others sing a simpler, less embellished version of the doble, the malagueña chica.
Sean
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Date Jul. 2 2006 16:22:09
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Granadinas (in reply to Phil)
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quote:
Are you sure of this? I've always had a hard time distinguishing some Granainas and Malagueñas (cante, not guitar). Only recently have I been trying to pay a little more attention to the cante melody. There's a particular melody line that I've heard in both that's causing most of my confusion. It's the same as main melody of 'Serrana' and occurs about 2:30 into El Zambo's Malagueña, as you mentioned.
I just know what my ear tells me. Not just 2:30, but the whole 1st letra. So many times I hear Malaguena performed this way on record, TV, or live. Sometimes it is labled "media granaina y malaguena" sometimes just "malaguenas". Either way I hear the same melody all the time. I have heard some different granainas, but the one called "media granaina" sung by itself I have seen lalbed as "granaina" often. I always thought as a guitarist that "media" refered to the fact the singer was singing in the key or tones of Malaguena, or singing half granaina half malaguena or something. But that is my own made up idea. Camaron's album with "Cada vez que nos miramos" has media granaina, but they call it "granainas" on the album jacket.
Once in the car with my gypsy friend, he had a singing student who like to sing old cantes from records by ear. He said "here is Malaguenas for you" and started singing granaina. My friend looked at me puzzled and said, "that was great, but you just sang granaina". It became a fun little arguement after that moment. I really think any confusion has to do with the way things are labled on record jackets. Same deal with Taranta/Taranto/Minera/Cartagenera etc. And Cantinas/Alegrias/Romeras/mirabras. That is a long title for a single performance even though that is what happens literally.
Ricardo
One more thing I just remembered. Granaina usually ends with the singer singing a note a half tone lower than tonic right before resolving, similar to Taranto. Very arabic or modal sounding. Malaguena and other types of fandango don't do that. Not sure what that means historically, but that is another easy way to pick out the melody different than malaguena.
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Date Jul. 2 2006 19:15:07
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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RE: Granadinas (in reply to Guest)
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Sean,
I was hoping that a cante post would get you to start posting again.  There was one awhile back that I was waiting for you to chime in on, but you never did. Maybe you missed it. I'm always happy to hear your input.
quote:
Ojo: the granaía is the simpler and less embellished version of the media granaína. This seems to make little sense, it may be due to an old mistake, but it is so. Therefore the granaína is sung first, as a warmup for the media.
The problem, as pointed out above, is the lack of information and the mis-information on record labels. Any tips on how I know when the Granaina ends and the Media-Granaina begins? Can you recommend any especially good recordings of Granainas/Media-Granaina?
Have you heard Diego Clavel's double CD of Malagueñas? If so, any opinions? I've heard OF Diego, but I've never heard him sing. I'll get to hear him at the Arranque Roteño Flamenco Festival in August.
Phil (from across the bay)
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Date Jul. 2 2006 22:53:25
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: Granadinas (in reply to Phil)
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Granadina is Granaína in Andaluz, right? A member of the fandango family, according to Robin Totton; as are fandangos locales, fandangos de Heulva, verdiales, rondenás, malaguenás, jaberas, fandangos personales or fandangos grandes.
"The granaína is the only song form in the key of B that is played on open strings... what is more, the chordal sequence is not quite the same as with other fandangos; Em/G-C-G-D7-G-C/B7. Thus, the tonic B chord, even at the end, is played with the flattened seventh, A.
The granaína is sung in two verses. Technically, they are two songs; the first verse is sung to one, and in the second, the singer has to let rip with melismas over a wide range, a demanding test of vocal control. In their hometown they are called the half-granaína and granaína, but elsewhere they are still misnamed the other way around."
There is a lot more about this palo, and all the others, in his book - "Song of the Outcasts"
_____________________________
Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
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Date Jul. 3 2006 0:31:45
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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RE: Granadinas (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
I'm kind of wondering what it matters what the name is, if you know how to accompany the melodies appropriately. The cantaores don't know the right names, the guitarists don't know the right names, only the flamencologists know the right names, and they're wrong.
I understand what you're saying. There is sometimes disagreement over such things as Bulerias por Solea and hair-splitting over indentifying styles. However, a lot of this is the result of people who think they know when they really don't. As you know, if you ask a question in Spain you are often given an answer, any answer, even if it's the wrong answer. There seems to be a reluctance to to say 'I don't know'. The fact is, however, that there are people who do know. Many older singers are fonts of knowledge of the cante in their area.
Why does it matter what the name is? It's just curiosity. I'm not really interested in being able to indentify ever specific style, but I'd like to be able to identify the most commonly sung styles and definitely would like to be able to distinguish between 2 palos like Malagueña and Granaina. What had me confused is a melody line that for me is the identifier of a Granaina that I also hear sometimes in Malagueñas and I wanted to get that straight. I also believe that if you know something about the styles you'll have a better idea where the singer is going to go when you're accompanying. Take Malagueña, for example, there are some styles that go to a minor chord and others that don't. If you could recognize the style from the first few notes sung you wouldn't be caught by surprise.
Anyway, a thread like this is a nice change of pace even if only 3 or 4 people are interested. 
Phil
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Date Jul. 3 2006 9:09:46
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Guest
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RE: Granadinas (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Naranjito de Trians died a couple of years ago. He was one of the finest and most complete payo singers of his generation. He taught cante in the Escuela Cristina Heeren, played guitar and also made a few guitars of his own.
Sean
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Date Jul. 3 2006 14:59:32
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