Pinky and the ring finger during picado

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devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

Pinky and the ring finger during picado

I have a question about pinky and ring finger posture during picado.
The extreme case is when you curl your pinky and ring finger into the palm like Graf Martinez does at 0:19-0:22 in the 1st video. In the 2nd video pinky and the ring finger curl less at a slower speed but as he speeds up, both fingers curl more into the palm at 1:30.

Other extreme case is pinky and the ring fing stick out when you do faster picado at 0:07-0:09 in the 3rd video.
I think somewhere between the two is picado of Paco de Lucia.

I wonder which one is the more natural way which creates less tension in the fingers especially in the active fingers i and m. What are the pros and cons of these 2 extreme cases above? Thanks for your input.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 15:32:58

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 15:48:08

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to devilhand)

I would say extreme cases "look" extreme, but it's what works for their hands with the least amount of tension. Our hands differ in size and balance and what feels natural for someone will damage another's hands. The most common thing I see with players who play picado well is that their pinky is out by a little bit, the ring finger moves (slightly) together with the middle.
I don't think this kind of thing develops consciously, but obviously you can work on it if you want. I have no idea what my ring and pinky look like when I play picado for example :) The most important thing is that you get rid of tension, that leads to a healthy hand with good speed and control.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2020 22:28:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to devilhand)

I first was curling my pinky and ring up into my palm, but playing with straight fingers. I later noticed the issue with i and m not the same length and string crossing problems. I observed many players playing with i and m bent at the middle knuckle as this shortens the m finger length so the reach is more the same for both...but it flattens the hand a bit to do that and I notices my other fingers not used (pinky and ring) would touch a string accidentally. So I consciously learned to pull them both up so that stopped happening and for many years this felt very comfortable....I never felt a tension of stiffness due to doing that posture...however I did observe how relaxed Manolo Sanlucar played .... probably the most relaxed of all. However he was certainly not the fastest player and I have seen him make errors with picado live quite often. So I can’t say whether being that relaxed with the pinky and ring affords any extra speed or not. Most fast players where doing something funky with pinky as well.

After many years I started to deliberately relax my hand when doing long fast lines and my pinky started sticking out on its own. Again I don’t feel that this coincided with extra speed or anything, but simply practicing improvising on gigs over the years has gradually improved my confidence and speed to where I dont’ really warm up anymore I can just go for it and it’s pretty much there where I need it to be. One song maybe that’s it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2020 3:07:32

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to devilhand)

What's natural is not to purposefully assume a posture. So don't flex the fingers into your palm, and don't extend them out into the air purposefully. If this happens not naturally but because of a teaching / habit that was put into you by a teacher or something in the past, then work to unlearn it. Going from neutral (not purposefully flexed or extended) is the most reasonable way, and then, if you play fast, and your fingers change posture automatically, then it's either because that is your "natural", in which case, fine, or that's because you're going faster than your brain / body still allows, and the tension is causing those inadvertent postures, in which case notice the tension, slow back down, slowly increase tempo, and see if those "inadvertent posture" returns. It takes time...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2020 17:28:18

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to Guest)

Thanks guys for the input.

My pinky and the ring finger looked similar to Paco's except for the ring finger which sticks out more. I wanted my ring finger to follow my middle finger 1:1. After some practice hours when I do slower picado my hand looks pretty similar to the hand of M. Sanlucar. When I play faster both fingers stick out more but less than before. As a result my ring finger moves sympathetically with the m finger as rasgeo77 mentioned. I'm gonna keep praciticing this way and see which picado hand position I'll get at the end.

@rombsix
Not sure what you mean by inadvertent posture. Posture with tension resulting from a fast movement which felt natural when at a slower speed?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2020 20:02:20

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to devilhand)

Just think of learning the Pmp rasgueado. At first you go slowly and move each finger individually. As you get up to speed gradually, you notice that your fingers are barely moving anymore because all the movement comes from your wrist. The process is not dissimilar to learning the picado, and in the end the only thing that matters is that you're accurate and the tone is right. It really doesn't matter what the ring and pinky do, so you shouldn't be wasting energy on investigating that as they will most likely change as you improve. Inadvertent posture is exactly this, you should be focusing on the fingers doing the picado, the other two are there to provide balance for your hand and they know their job. It's interesting of course to analyze this aspect, but I don't think it's something you should be actively trying to affect.

In my humble opinion Vicente's technique looks quite horrible from an aesthetic point of view, yet what a player he is. My hand size/shape and technique of playing is similar to his (not the quality obviously), but he's not one whose hand I'd ever want to copy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2020 2:55:44

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

In my humble opinion Vicente's technique looks quite horrible from an aesthetic point of view, yet what a player he is. My hand size/shape and technique of playing is similar to his (not the quality obviously), but he's not one whose hand I'd ever want to copy.

Yes. Those hyper flexible fingers are very weird to watch.

quote:

So I consciously learned to pull them both up so that stopped happening and for many years this felt very comfortable....

A few weeks ago my ring finger during picado looked a bit similar as yours. After practicing with curled pinky and the ring finger it feels much easier and faster to switch between arpeggio and picado. I think this is one of the advantages.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2020 19:50:51

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Not sure what you mean by inadvertent posture. Posture with tension resulting from a fast movement which felt natural when at a slower speed?

I mean if you play slow and your hands looks one way, but then when you play fast the posture changes unintentionally, then it may be related to tension because you're trying build up the speed faster than your body is still allowing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2020 3:59:30

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

Not sure what you mean by inadvertent posture. Posture with tension resulting from a fast movement which felt natural when at a slower speed?

I mean if you play slow and your hands looks one way, but then when you play fast the posture changes unintentionally, then it may be related to tension because you're trying build up the speed faster than your body is still allowing.

Thanks for the clarification. So true what you wrote. It reminds me of the following advice which I read and took notice of it, but difficult to follow. I think one should be patient and accept it takes time as you mentioned. It can take maybe months even years. But I do believe focused practice will reduce this time span.

quote:

Practice super slow first and then gradually increase the tempo, but by a small degree such that the muscles hardly notice the increased demand for speed. That means as you play faster, you'll make the same effort as you did at a slow speed. This will make you avoid from bringing the tension into your fast playing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2020 11:41:25

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Pinky and the ring finger during... (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Practice super slow first and then gradually increase the tempo, but by a small degree such that the muscles hardly notice the increased demand for speed. That means as you play faster, you'll make the same effort as you did at a slow speed. This will make you avoid from bringing the tension into your fast playing.

Sounds like sage advice...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2020 2:09:04