arpeggio speed practice regimen

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12percentjuice

Posts: 1
Joined: Feb. 11 2017

arpeggio speed practice regimen

My sloppy arpeggios are really holding me back so I'm trying to go back to basics and get the fundamentals right.

I'm starting with ascending arpeggios using the planted finger technique. Right now I can only play a clean continuous PIMA at 50BPM.

What I'm wondering is if there is any particular regimen I should follow to increase this. In other words how much time to spend practicing this one technique per day, how many days per week, how often to increase metronome speed and by how much.

Is there a routine that efficiently builds this type of muscle memory or should I just practice as much as possible? What regime has worked for you to build up speed of a given technique?

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 1:45:31

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

I try to avoid spending too long on any one technique. It helps to have enough basic compas variations with arpegios as possible. Solea, SpB, tangos, alegrias. All these palos have plenty of scope for playing super simple arpegio falsetas / remates. But mix it up with different rasgueado, alzapua, picado, pulgar etc but keep coming back to particular arpegio passages. The reason to swap techniques often is to give your arp muscles time to relax. Also it's way more musical than only doing arps for five hours. Tremolos can help loosen up the arp muscles too. Play around with it all, improvise a bit here n there and have fun.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 2:01:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

50bpm 1/8 notes? 1/16's???

When you nail a certain speed bump it 10 non and struggle till you can consistently nail it.

I like practicing piamai arps, and of course different escobillas cus that's normally when you use a lot of arps. and....get loose, get loose get loose, don't tighten your hand or your forearm. Practice drunk.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 2:03:22

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

quote:

What I'm wondering is if there is any particular regimen I should follow to increase this. In other words how much time to spend practicing this one technique per day, how many days per week, how often to increase metronome speed and by how much.

Is there a routine that efficiently builds this type of muscle memory or should I just practice as much as possible? What regime has worked for you to build up speed of a given technique?

https://gumroad.com/l/nRitP#

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 2:09:47

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to rombsix)

A more affordable one:

https://gumroad.com/l/ASQt#

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 4:34:29

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

Have fun

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 17:29:59

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

You won't get better with playing stupid exercises without being aware about the correct technique and mechanics. PLAYING exercises with the wrong technique makes it even worse.
I can only recommend the Adam del Monte series on newlearningvision.com
Buy the technique package, he is a great teacher and explains everything very well. He gives very good advice about how to practice technique effectively too.
Here is a little demonstration of his didactic talent

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2017 17:49:21

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Cervantes)

Looks familiar...
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=299721&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=giuliani&tmode=&smode=&s=#299721

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 1:55:14

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

You won't get better with playing stupid exercises without being aware about the correct technique and mechanics. PLAYING exercises with the wrong technique makes it even worse.
I can only recommend the Adam del Monte series on newlearningvision.com
Buy the technique package, he is a great teacher and explains everything very well. He gives very good advice about how to practice technique effectively too.
Here is a little demonstration of his didactic talent

Does he talk about planting in his full technique package at NewLearningVision? I think that is probably what will get you speed in arpeggios, and his the GSI video he mentions nothing of that...

Ricardo and Todd talk about planting on the foro on some threads. Planting is another way of saying "prepared stroke", I guess, so think about that concept and work on it SLOWLY then gradually speed up.

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 3:25:00

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

Finding lots of stuff to practice and practicing it totally the wrong way
is definitely something alot of players fall into.

Find a teacher in your area. You just cant beat a one on one live lesson with a pro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 6:48:48

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
Does he talk about planting in his full technique package at NewLearningVision?

Yep, in several of the packages. Adams lessons are superb, lots of technical instruction, lots of explanation relating different techniques to palos and compas, lots of material that you can use for real i.e. not simply 'exercises'.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 19:33:42

athrane77

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2017 20:12:13

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to 12percentjuice)

I keep working on my arpeggio. How many bpm do arpeggio sextuplets have to be considered fast enough in flamenco guitar playing? I mean one sextuplet per beat. Some video examples for super fast arpeggio would be appreciated too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2020 14:30:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to devilhand)

130-150 bpm. Note he takes the tremolo up almost to 150 cuz it’s 5 notes not 6. But at least it’s a goal range to think of doing all techniques.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2020 15:14:44

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

130-150 bpm

One click per sextuplet (which was the original question), i.e. 130-150 (x6)? So that's 195-225 (x4).

Paco's Guarijas de Lucia has arpeggios which are 104 (x6), i.e. sextuplets at 104bpm, one click per sextuplet, i.e. 156 (x4).

I mean, I don't disagree that 130-150(x6) ability would imply having no difficulties with any of the flamenco arpeggios; I am just checking to see if you really meant that or the (x4).

Gohar Vardanyan's demo of that same Giuliani's sextuplet etude (as Juan's in the other thread) is at about 126 (x6) on average and people are usually blown out of the water based on the comments. Of course, that's a classical guitar water and we know classical streams are quite a bit calmer and slower than flamenco ones.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2020 18:24:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to kitarist)

She does 144bpm with click at the end of that tutorial. So yes same ball park.

At 1:25 tempo 143bpm, later he does tremolo as well.

At times 150ish

3:20 till end (168?????!)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2020 21:09:27

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to kitarist)

Great guys. Muchas gracias. So 150 bpm is the target? Sounds like it's possible in comparison to 250bpm picado. The 3rd video is not available. Maybe taken down?

Are you referring to at 1:40-2:03 in Nino Ricardo video?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2020 23:25:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Are you referring to at 1:40-2:03 in Nino Ricardo video?

No. A tremolo uses piami, which is basically an arpegio technique pattern of 5 notes (only the first m is skipped to make a sextuplet, and of course the fingers usually play only 1 string so it’s a little harder speed wise than when the fingers can plant on separate strings), and he increases the tempo to perform it at 1:14-1:32. After that he slows back down to the tempo he was at before.

What I am saying is 130 would be a tempo to aim for with ALL techniques, keeping in mind you might want to push it TOWARDS 150. As you can see, the top players are using it (pimami arps) in the 140’s frequently. But those are the top guys. Including Nino Ricardo, right up there with nunez etc. Everybody else first should be working toward 130 bpm to start with.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2020 13:43:45

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

What I am saying is 130 would be a tempo to aim for with ALL techniques, keeping in mind you might want to push it TOWARDS 150.

This translates neatly into 13-15 strokes/second, but now it is independent of specifying what the notes-to-beats relationship is.

13-15 strokes/s = 130-150 bpm for pimami sextuplets, one per click. (a 10 multiplier, since 60/6 = 10)

13-15 strokes/s = 195-225 bpm if four notes per click, as how picado speeds are often quoted. (a 15 multiplier, since 60/4 = 15)

13-15 strokes/s = 156-180 bpm for piami tremolo. one piami per click. (a 12 multiplier, since 60/5 = 12)

13-15 strokes/s = 195-225 bpm for pami tremolo, one pami per click.(a 15 multiplier)

If these seem hopeless, I'd think reaching 12 strokes/s is an accomplishment in itself for all of these except for pimami sextuplet which just seems easier than the rest.

I personally have a big difference between pimami and pamima arpeggio speeds - which I have been working to minimize. It started with a difference of about 35 clicks (pamima being slower); now it is more like a difference of 25 clicks - while both speeds have increased by about 40 clicks each. So, curiously, the difference persists, albeit smaller than before, but both speeds have shot up considerably.

So for me, 130+ bpm arpeggio feels like a stretch goal in the same way as for the other techniques only if it is referring to pamima arpeggio; the pimaimi arpeggio is already there.

BTW in all of the above, I was thinking about controlled, sustained (beyond a second or two/burst) speed of the respective technique. Otherwise speed comparisons become too weird.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2020 18:33:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to kitarist)

Sextuplets was always the reference. 6 per beat or thumb stroke. Yes single bursts are gonna be easier than continuous rolls. So the point is what you need to function in context. Continuous rolls is a goal at 130bpm for solea, but quick bursts need to be achieve much faster in Solea por buleria or alegrias.

Of course tremolo is harder to do as there is no full planting. Other patterns that avoid the full plant will also be slower going, such as the one you mentioned gives you trouble by comparison. Conversely full plants (pima, or more often p...imaP...imaP) should be easy to achieve at extremely elevated speeds, perhaps 200+ range. So one thing to work on is the p...amiP....amiP...pattern first and finding a maximum speed there with sequential planting before trying to push your pimami or tremolo or any other pattern.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2020 19:07:13

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Of course tremolo is harder to do as there is no full planting. Other patterns that avoid the full plant will also be slower going, such as the one you mentioned gives you trouble by comparison. Conversely full plants (pima, or more often p...imaP...imaP) should be easy to achieve at extremely elevated speeds

By full planting, are you referring to 'block planting', meaning all fingers participating in an arpeggio pattern are planted on their respective strings before execution? So you are discussing the differences full vs. sequential planting makes in speed of execution? I saw it called 'block planting' in one method and prefer to use that to avoid confusion with the individual finger planting versus no planting issue.

So assuming this is what you mean, two things:

1. I do both pimami and pamima arpeggios with sequential planting, yet pimami is faster (or rather it feels more natural to move that way, if that makes any sense, so it ends up being faster). I considered that it might be a weird psychological thing and practiced doing pimamima so both imami and amima occur within the same pattern but it starts as if doing pimami to see if I can trick my brain into playing this p..amima faster (after adjusting for the extra two notes) than pamima. I still have not figured out exactly what happens and why.

2. Even so, back to your argument above - if we do pima full/block planting and thus get it going faster (I know this is true; not arguing if it is correct or not), why is it that, within pimami arpeggio, the coming-back part of the pattern also manages to be faster - the 'ami' of the pimami where we can't do block planting yet somehow the whole pattern gets faster?

And thank you for the tip about practicing p.amip amip.. I will try that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2020 18:11:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to kitarist)

quote:

why is it that, within pimami arpeggio, the coming-back part of the pattern also manages to be faster -

Cuz it’s actually only m-i sequentially. Pretty much easier to go faster then a-m-i p by a hair. So pima+m-i, so the game hinges on the sequential M note (often on the b string). To help students gain speed I have them hard stop on that note and move melodies on it. Pima-m! The rhythm can still be 6 per click but if you think it as 1&2&3, stopping on 3 and emphasizing the 3 by changing notes. Like use a c chord but change the note like dust in the wind with that arp pattern. Once you get it to your desired tempo, try to stick the missing i back in (open g string) every other time. Eventually the i learns how to repeat fast enough for smooth 6s.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2020 4:59:15

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

What I am saying is 130 would be a tempo to aim for with ALL techniques, keeping in mind you might want to push it TOWARDS 150.

Are you telling us we have to play 32th notes? This is damn fast. I was wrong when I wrote 150 bpm is easy to handle.

Paco's picado is even faster around 250 bpm. Four 16th notes per beat. If we think we have to play at least sixteen 16th notes per beat to reach 240bpm, it's 64th notes. This is just crazy. Now I believe in flamenco guitar playing it's all about speed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2020 15:46:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Are you telling us we have to play 32th notes? This is damn fast. I was wrong when I wrote 150 bpm is easy to handle.

Paco's picado is even faster around 250 bpm. Four 16th notes per beat. If we think we have to play at least sixteen 16th notes per beat to reach 240bpm, it's 64th notes. This is just crazy. Now I believe in flamenco guitar playing it's all about speed.

Rasgueados yes (8 per beat or click) and perhaps some ligado things. Sextuplet picados can be done (paco at 132, 6 per click). As far as 4 per click, no paco is never doing 250 or whatever your ridiculous claim is. The fastest I have clocked is chanela 115, 8 per click. So 230bpm as 4s, and he wasn’t as clean as normal. His normal comfy 8s are just over 100bpm.

When I said “all techniques” I mean ones you would use in solea as necessary at 130bpm. Cuz normally solea might be slower than that but students should be working toward that tempo in case it is needed in practice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2020 14:36:39

kitarist

Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Cuz it’s actually only m-i sequentially.

Interesting mental trick. Thank you, will try it out thinking that way.

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Konstantin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2020 17:37:16

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sextuplet picados can be done (paco at 132, 6 per click).

Is it 3 finger picado? I didn't know Paco played 3 finger picado.

quote:

The fastest I have clocked is chanela 115, 8 per click. So 230bpm as 4s, and he wasn’t as clean as normal. His normal comfy 8s are just over 100bpm.

If the note value had been continous, slightly greater than 200 bpm would have been between 55th and 60th note or something, which is still crazy fast.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2020 23:37:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Sextuplet picados can be done (paco at 132, 6 per click).

Is it 3 finger picado? I didn't know Paco played 3 finger picado.

quote:

The fastest I have clocked is chanela 115, 8 per click. So 230bpm as 4s, and he wasn’t as clean as normal. His normal comfy 8s are just over 100bpm.

If the note value had been continous, slightly greater than 200 bpm would have been between 55th and 60th note or something, which is still crazy fast.

I have no clue what you are saying and keep adding extra words to what I say. Where in the hell did I ever mention three finger picado? Two freaking fingers. 6 notes per click, the click =132bpm. Bulerias picado. That’s the same speed as triplets at 264bpm. 13.2 notes per second.

55th or 60th note? What the hell are you saying? I said paco does 8 notes per click just above 100 (104 his favorite ie most common tempo, but 99-107bpm is normal range). That is called 32nd notes. If you call em 16th notes, ie 4 notes per click, then the click would be 200-214bpm.

And yes, ALSO paco does do three finger a-m-i runs on occasion. I am sure I showed those videos already when it was discussed about apoyando arpegio. It’s not for speed, he does not increase subdivisions above the i-m picado speed when he uses it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2020 6:36:45

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sextuplet picados can be done (paco at 132, 6 per click).

quote:

Where in the hell did I ever mention three finger picado? Two freaking fingers. 6 notes per click, the click =132bpm. Bulerias picado.

Sextuplet picado was irritating. The question is what is the advantage of measuring picado as 6 notes per beat?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2020 20:00:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggio speed practice regimen (in reply to devilhand)

quote:

Sextuplet picado was irritating. The question is what is the advantage of measuring picado as 6 notes per beat?

The advantage is you can easily know how many notes per second something is. Other than that, your aversion to picado as rhythmic sixes is nonsensical as countless musical situations require it. Do we need rhythm dog AGAIN?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2020 21:06:28